Wealth and the Kingdom of the God

[Miss Friendship]

Maybe some of you have got the impression that I am saying "live your life, trust God, don't work or plan for the future" and I am not saying, or promoting that at all. We should be working, saving, and planning for the future. If you have bills coming in the mail, you work and pay for them. You buy your own food, you don't go begging or righteously say "I am relying on God." You do what any normal living hardworking person would do--except as a Christian, you have the greatest opportunity of all times. You have the chance to send some money on ahead to heaven. How do you do that? By giving your excess money to the poor. What do you do with your excess money? The world is more than happy to swallow it up. Upgrade to the newest I-phone. Replace your Ford with a Honda... etc. I am not saying any of these things are wrong in of itself, but for what reason? Do you need a better phone?

What is our focus as Christians? Sending money on ahead by feeding the poor and clothing the hungry? Sure, God will help us on earth when we need Him. (He's helping us every minute just to breath, Tiger. Remember that. You need God, yes, accept it.) But when I get to heaven, I want those treasures that God speaks about. On Judgment Day what exactly is God going to judge us by? By how much we clothed the naked, fed the hungry etc. I'm afraid this isn't something we can glide by. It's that important!

(Spoon, and Tiger, why don't you go read "The Windows" a short article on a link I shared a few posts back. That explains a lot of how I view this... you understanding of what I am trying to say is way off...)

[Spoon]

What do you think of people that rely on welfare?

[TigerShadow]

(He's helping us every minute just to breath, Tiger. Remember that. You need God, yes, accept it.)

Take this condescending attitude and get it as far away from me as you possibly can. Not only do I acknowledge and accept that, but you are not perfect in this regard any more than I am, which means that you have absolutely no right to have the preachy, holier-than-thou attitude that your post conveys.

But when I get to heaven, I want those treasures that God speaks about. On Judgment Day what exactly is God going to judge us by? By how much we clothed the naked, fed the hungry etc. I'm afraid this isn't something we can glide by. It's that important!

Of course it is, but I'm not getting what about "give of your time and money to the poor" is intimately connected with "spending money on luxury items is poor stewardship".

(Spoon, and Tiger, why don't you go read "The Windows" a short article on a link I shared a few posts back. That explains a lot of how I view this... you understanding of what I am trying to say is way off...)

Frankly, I'm a lot more interested in what you have to say rather than someone else, since you're the person I'm talking to.

[Miss Friendship]

Tiger, your posts indicated that you believed to me, God was merely a vending machine. And I may sound condescending, but I am going to say it. You can disagree with me all you want, my opinions are only opinions, but when it comes to God, He is the God I serve and to say I don't need Him, shouldn't go to Him for everything, is the worst untruth most terrible thing I have ever heard on this board. I watched a child be healed today after the parents and pastor called on God and annonited him with oil. No, it wasn't a serious disease.... But we prayed, and God heard. And you are telling me that to remind you that you need God is holier-than-thou??! I honestly thought you may have forgotten!!

I really don't want to use hard words when responding to you....but I sometimes there's no way to say hard things with nice words. (As i am sure you will agree)

You'd rather talk to me? Thank you. That is civil. The article was merely pointing to the fact that some will gaze down into their basement, their eyes on their possesions and agonizing how much to get rid of, and how much to save, instead of going to the window that overlooks the ocean and seeing the vast amount of needs in foriegn lands and giving for that motivation.

*sigh* buying overloads of luxury takes away from what you could be giving to the Kingdom instead....please tell me that is not hard to understand?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I am greatly conflicted because the Bible is very radical about giving everything you have to the poor. I think that different people are called to different lives. We should be open to literally selling everything we have and giving it to the poor. We should never withold our help, monetary or otherwise, from those in need. But some people also need to plan for emergencies. That is not failing to trust in God. To each they will rise or fall according to their master, who are we to judge?

[Miss Friendship]

Judging is not my intention in the least. I apologize if I came off that way...especially to you, Tiger.

Saving for the future is the wisest thing you can ever do. I'm only encouraging everyone to put more effort into saving into the bank that can't fail, instead of the bank where "rust and moth collect, thieves break in and steal"

Eleventh, there's something to be said for selling everything and giving it all away, but then what? Isn't it a possibility to work hard, pay your bills and give as much as you can after that? With work you can keep sending money to Heaven... whereas selling will only be a one-time donation. I think when Jesus said "sell and give" He was especially talking to the rich... who had way more than they needed to live on.

And there's something to be said for living by faith when it comes to "medical emergencies." "Without faith it is impossible to please God." And I certainly want to please God with my life. So I'm not judging, only encouraging faith and obedience....

[Blitz]

Wow this thread got rather snappy rather quickly.

I'm a missionary kid. I am poor overall compared to the majority of Americans. Yes, I've traveled a lot but those were largely for mission purposes. Anyway, I've lived on hard times, yet my parents have set aside for the future in building this house and saving. The job I want to go into in the future is economics ironically.

Giving all is pretty tough. I read an article about it once in my Lit book. The article was done by a famous preacher his name slips my mind right now. He said to give all we had to give up the enjoyment of our fortune. I've seen poverty but that does not necessarily mean they gave all. Our giving does not matter whatsoever. It is the attitude behind it. Are we giving to give up something not for our sake but because it is a form of worship for us or are we giving it to get something back? Or are we giving grudgingly?

It isn't how much we give, but how. We are focusing on amount and on work value. Forget that. We shouldn't even let anyone know how much we give. Very few people live without excess. Americans can do without a lot more trust me. When you get power outages for days on end you really learn that. Focus on what is behind giving not on how much.
(Personally, I love the stock market. It takes a leap of faith sometimes.)

[Miss Friendship]

Well I agree with you Blitz, that we shouldn't be spreading it around how much we give. That's obviously pride.

But I do think it matters, not how much we give, but how much we have left over. Consider the widow that gave only two mites. She gave everything.... the other rich men gave ten times more than her, but Jesus didn't praise them, He praised the widow. The rich men still had plenty left over. So we can give a star, but we have a galaxy left over... how exactly are we going to fit through that needles eye?

I have heard many people try to get out of giving, (very wealthy professing Christians) by saying it doesn't matter how much money you have as long as you don't love it. But if it hurts to give, I'd go as far to say that you love it. When I see massive million dollar churches being built, and expensive cars rolling in, and acres and acres of a successful farm, and a reluctance to give, I get concerned. (I've seen this) Jesus is interested in every aspect of our lives, including money, and I fear for those who don't give because apparently we are going to be judged by how much we gave...

Not accusing any of you of this... rather thinking about real-life scenarios and dare I say it, people I know.

[TigerShadow]

It's worth pointing out that when Jesus told the rich young man to sell all he had and give to the poor, He was saying that to test him in that specific area, to see if the rich young man valued his possessions over following Jesus—the Bible mentions that Jesus knew the man's heart, indicating that this was a command tailored specifically to him. I don't think that Jesus was condemning wealth in and of itself, or even the purchase of luxury items; He was condemning skewed priorities. Some people who gain wealth are called to focus on monetary charity work, but others are not; for others, their calling, while it most likely includes financial donations, may be to something else.

Tiger, your posts indicated that you believed to me, God was merely a vending machine.

I reread my post and saw nothing of the sort; in fact, my post explicitly condemned that attitude.

And I may sound condescending, but I am going to say it. You can disagree with me all you want, my opinions are only opinions, but when it comes to God, He is the God I serve and to say I don't need Him, shouldn't go to Him for everything, is the worst untruth most terrible thing I have ever heard on this board.

Where in my post did I say that you shouldn't? What I said was that your gospel seemed eerily close to the prosperity gospel taken to poor and destitute people, that if they just believe hard enough and do all the right things and have all the right ideas, God will immediately meet their earthly needs whenever they need them met. You sounded like you were saying that God does what we think we need for Him to do just because we believe that He can. Of course He can, but that doesn't mean that it's His will to do so.

There are Christians all over the world who suffer. There are Christians who are starving, who are impoverished, who are homeless, who are jobless, who are beaten and tortured and raped and violently killed. My pastor is friends with a pastor from China whose church saved up money to construct a house of worship, only to see it torn down when the Chinese government suddenly changed their minds about what they would and wouldn't let them do. They don't believe in God any less; their faith is probably stronger than that of many people in suburban America. It simply is not His will to deliver them from their earthly struggles, at least not in the way that they'd like.

Basically what I'm saying is this: Of course God meets our needs. That doesn't mean that He meets them on our terms or because of our actions. He meets them on His terms in His time.

I watched a child be healed today after the parents and pastor called on God and annonited him with oil. No, it wasn't a serious disease.... But we prayed, and God heard.

And that can happen, and I'm thrilled for that! But that doesn't happen to everyone.

So I'm not judging, only encouraging faith and obedience....

You're kind of judging anyway, even as you're not trying to do so, because you're defining faith and obedience based on your and your family's personal convictions and interpretations of Scripture. Not everyone feels compelled by the Holy Spirit to avoid retirement savings or to not buy luxury items; everyone should feel compelled to be generous and to be good stewards, but that comes in different forms for different people.

[Spoon]

When I see massive million dollar churches being built, and expensive cars rolling in, and acres and acres of a successful farm, and a reluctance to give, I get concerned. (I've seen this) Jesus is interested in every aspect of our lives, including money, and I fear for those who don't give because apparently we are going to be judged by how much we gave...

Is it really your place to judge or even be concerned about this?

Also, again, what do you think of people who rely on welfare?

[Miss Friendship]

You misunderstood me, Tiger. It wasn't you who I meant viewed God as a vending machine, but that you believed I viewed God that way....sorry for not explaining that more clearly.

The prosperity gospel preaches that you will be rich here, right? I am saying you may never be wealthy in material items if you give...only in heavenly treasure. Besides we are talking about giving to the poor and needy, not to some millionaire preacher.

If I judge, I want it to be from Jesus words only. How can you interpret the scriptures when Jesus condemns wealth any other way?

Well, so I shouldn't judge the rich and wealthy, Spoon. But according to Jesus's words I shouldnt consider them a Christian either as they aren't following Christ.

Welfare. Is that when the government gives to the old or out of work? I don't see anything wrong with that unless the person recieving it is lazy and refuses to work when he is able, or blows it all away on drink.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So you're essentially preach the prosperity gospel but for heavenly wealth? The point of the Christian life is rewards in heaven?

Judging = not considering them a Christian

[SirWhit]

Sigh. All rich people are going to hell? I suppose my parents are going to hell then. Even though my dad runs a ministry organization, preaches regularly at our church, does two one on one bible studies a week, and is the most Godly man I know, is going to hell? Yeah whatever.

[Spoon]

So ignoring all the verses about judging others, we now get to claim whether people are saved or not?

[SirWhit]

To preemptively send a whole people group, no less in need of God, to hell is judgmental. Sorry no.

[TigerShadow]

It isn't your place to determine if someone is a Christian or not. Even laying aside the fact that love of money, not money itself, is the root of all evil, having wealth does not a nonbeliever make. Because let's say that you're right and Jesus did condemn all forms of wealth—you can be a Christian and not always adhere to the teachings of the Bible. That's part of our sin nature, that we as Christians still sin. Just because we sin doesn't mean that we're going to hell; it's whether or not we cling to the work of Jesus Christ.

It's one thing to call someone's moral inconsistencies into question; it's another thing entirely when you label them as [censored]. =/

[Miss Friendship]

I am sorry everyone. But I can't say nice things if they aren't true. Jesus made it clear that the way to eternal life is narrow, and few find it... Many will say "Lord Lord, have we not done everything in your name?" And he will say he never knew them because they rejected Him in the form of the poor and needy. He also said that if someone truly loves Him, they will obey his commands.

Sure, everyone sins and messes up but to excuse Jesus commands by saying "we all sin" just isn't right. Jesus said the world will hate Him because his message is foreign to them. That explains why many can't understand how having an overabundance of riches without giving, is sin.

We are going to be judged by Jesus's words at the end of our lives. So if you feel judged, make sure its by me, and not what Jesus has said about money. You can all say its my own interpretation, but when it comes down to it, those verses are saying something. So ask Jesus what He really means...He will show you.

This has nothing to do with a prosperity gospel....I though you all were smart enough to see its exactly the opposite.... And if you all think heavenly wealth is not what you want, I compare it to this:

One day a salesman walked up a house and knocked. The man opens the door. "Hello", says the salesman." I have come to make a deal with you. You see your gravel driveway out there? Well I am offering you the greatest deal ever! For every stone in your driveway I will give you a nugget of gold in exchange."

"What? Oh no," the man shakes his head. "I need those rocks. I park my car on it so it won't get muddy when it rains. No I need my rocks."

"But sir! I am offering you real gold for those rocks!"

"Sorry. I don't want it."

We are all shocked at the mans response. The opportunity of a lifetime and he throws it away?!

That's what Jesus is offering us. He is offering us the chance to exchange rocks (worldly wealth) for gold (heavenly treasure) and it seems to me you all aren't interested just like that man. I am making a judgment, please tell me I am wrong?

[Eleventh Doctor]

You're wrong, just because people don't agree with your interpretation of the Bible doesn't mean we are rejecting Christ. You aren't the ultimate arbiter of what it means to follow God's commands.

[TigerShadow]

And shouldn't we be seeking Jesus Himself, not His blessings? The Kingdom of God isn't really about a kingdom; it's about God. Worshipping God isn't really about the things He gives us, though we should certainly be grateful for them; it's about worshipping the essence of who God is, that He in and of Himself is worth worshipping. And leading people to Christ isn't about what they will get out of it; it's about magnifying the name of Jesus.

[Miss Friendship]

Christ and his commands go together. I am sorry, but He said it, not I. So you can't blame me.

No it isn't about what we can get out of it, its about following Christ and abandoning ourselves completely to Him. We love him so much we will do anything He commands! Right?

Look, do you know how hard it is for me to say these things? I don't like to say hard words anymore than you like hearing them. But I can't agree that Jesus commands aren't important if the whole world agrees.... I don't want to judge....I don't want my rich friends to continue blindly ignoring Gods commands... But I can't ignore scripture. Its truth. Jesus doesn't lie, so I can't either to please anyone..

(My dad did say that of all the subjects he has spoken on, money was always the touchiest subject. It makes people uncomfortable)

@ Mr. Whits End
Its not the money that's wrong, its what your Dad does with it. If he is giving all he can to Jesus, why condemn him?

-- Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:36 pm --

Tiger, I am afraid the Kingdom is important. Jesus came expressly to preach about the Kingdom of God. It is a war... We are fighting Satan's Kingdom. We have to agree the Kingdom is important.