Disney's Big Hero 6 - SPOILERS!

[Novatom]

Well done, Woody! You almost make me think twice about saying Frozen is way better than BH6! I assure you that I will not kill you!

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

Great points, Woody. I agree about the fire, I felt it cheapened Tadashi's death too. I can see your point about the Portal World, but I myself considered it to be the most artistically brilliant scene in the movie and a marvel of animation.

[TigerShadow]

but I don't think the quality of the villain makes a better movie.

I strongly, strongly disagree. A movie is only as good as the challenges it forces its heroes to face.

I did not find Hans to be a particularly strong villainous character. He was so evil because he wanted power and he wanted the throne because he was thirteenth in line for his own and...that's it. There's no really deep explanation for his motivations beyond "For the Powerz", which is hardly an original motivation. The movie could still have been good if it had humanized Hans post-reveal, perhaps suggested that he acted the way he did because he felt that his agency had been robbed from him and he wanted control to compensate, but no such thing occurred. Hans's humanization comes in the context of his behavior with other characters, not in terms of his own development as a character.

Callaghan, on the other hand, has a classic "vengeance for the death of a loved one" storyline, but rather than ignore his emotional pain, the movie highlights it, and it is made very clear that Callaghan's fury at Krei was not at all misplaced while at the same time showing that Callaghan's actions were a negative example of letting hatred and grief control you. Not many movies can pull that off, usually either painting the villain entirely black or redeeming the villain completely with no acknowledgment of how reversals of moral alignment actually work. At the end of the film, it's made very clear that we're not supposed to side with Callaghan for what he did, as shown by the fact that he's being carted off to jail, but we are supposed to empathize with him.

Essentially, the villain's story needs to be as solid and compelling as the hero's in order for the movie to work in terms of storytelling, and BH6 is more solid in this area than Frozen is.

@Woody: Re:Fire, I thought that Tadashi's death being cheapened by the reveal was a real emotional gut punch. Tadashi's death being cheapened was the point, because it adds to the emotional impact of Tadashi's death on Hiro—because at that point, Hiro knew that his brother died in vain, and it drove him to levels almost as extreme as Callaghan's.

[Woody]

@Woody: Re:Fire, I thought that Tadashi's death being cheapened by the reveal was a real emotional gut punch. Tadashi's death being cheapened was the point, because it adds to the emotional impact of Tadashi's death on Hiro—because at that point, Hiro knew that his brother died in vain, and it drove him to levels almost as extreme as Callaghan's.

Yes. I meant to mention something along those lines. Thanks for pointing that out

[Novatom]

Yes, Callaghan was a better villain. I already said that. I also already said that the villain doesn't matter a lot to me (unless in a case like Megamind or Despecible Me when the villain is the main character). I also don't think the motive make a good villain. And I think revenge is also a cliche motivation. As I said before, Callaghan as the villain was predictable and his whole costume was strange and appeared very unrealistic when the movie is set in a modern-day big city.

[TigerShadow]

Out of curiosity, Novatom, what makes a good villain to you?

[Novatom]

A believable villain is a good villain. You know, realistic. Yes, Callaghan does fall under this category. I was just saying I don't think a good villain is made entirely by them having understandable motives.

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

But that's literally what you just said. You just said defined a good villain as one that is realistic, but then you said that understandable motives don't necessarily make a villain good. That's basically a contradiction, since "realisticness" and "understandable motives" are essentially the same thing when it comes to villains. And I would also disagree with the idea that you should be able to put yourself in a villain's shoes. Can we put ourselves in the shoes of Norman Bates or Hannibal Lector (I haven't seen either of those movies, but I'm just throwing out the first names that came to mind.)? Hopefully not, and yet they still topped AFI's Poll for Best Movie Villains respectively. But, humanized villains are extremely refreshing in Disney movies, and Callghan is one of the few semi-humanized Disney villains I can think of.

[Novatom]

I meant realistic as in Callaghan wore a creepy mask that he used to control robots with his mind (I'm using this as an example of unrealistic).

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

What are you getting at? How is that unrealistic? Are you saying masks don't exist in real life, or that villains never want to hide their identity? And if you're going to complain about microbots being unrealistic, what about Elsa's ice powers? Also, keep in mind that Big Hero 6 doesn't necessarily have to be set in the present. It could be in a distant future where it's possible for a 14-year old boy to invent microbots.

[Novatom]

I'm saying villains don't usually dress so - strangely. Frozen was set in a fictional kingdom - Arendelle. Whereas BH6 was set in a New York City-like place where things should be more real (but are maybe even more unrealistic than Frozen).

[TigerShadow]

He wore black clothing and a mask to conceal his face; how is that strange clothing for someone who wants to both keep his identity hidden (given that people believe him to be dead and that's to his advantage) and look intimidating?

[Samantha14]

technically that makes the whole movie unrealistic. =｜ fluffy, healing robots, super heroes, mind control. When, actually, mind-control towards objects is a real thing actually being worked on (ever played 'headbandz'?) but that's neither here nor there. The fact is it was meant to be a futuristic, technologically advanced city. The creepy mask is a play off japanese mythology and other elements. The kabuki mask is not exactly the most high honoring object, to my knowledge. He wore a mask to keep his identity secret up until the end. But unlike 'scare the goodies away, smuggle the treasure.' villains of scooby doo, he wanted krei to know it was him in the end because he wanted krei to suffer at his hand like he did at Krei's.

I believe the professor started the fire himself to cover his tracks. Didn't you see Hiro leave his transmitter on the stage after his presentation? Just a theory but the controller 'yokai' uses could very well be the same one hiro did. Why he would have left it there is beyond me, but he never grabs it after the acceptance letter. maybe due to all the security around? no one would have questioned or suspected Professor C. if he acted cool and collectively about picking it up, inspecting it, etc. but if all of it had disappeared and the yokai had come, if anyone had seen him messing with it, he'd be to blame. so covering his tracks was smart as a villainous move.

Also yes, in canon, the incident with his daughter happened first. that's why he said that, and became yokai to begin with. it wouldn't make sense to have been after.

also I choose to believe that the hyper sleep thing was time induced, and that perhaps the metals and materials floating around in the portal, as well as covering his body via super-suit, would have warped the affects just enough to not happen during the time they were in there. But that's just me.

Lastly, a cheapened death was the point. Tadashi died in vain, in the moment, but the aftermath was not
in fact, it helped save the world.

[Novatom]

I mean that I don't think a modern criminal would dress like that. Yes, he would want to conceal his face, but I think he could conceal it better. I mean, if you looked at someone like him, you would immediately know he was a villain, right? This would be extremely risky for him.

[Samantha14]

a villain, yes. but not who. besides, Isis dresses in robes and face concealment, and don't forget the guy who dressed as the joker to open fire in a theatre..

[Wakko]

Yes, Callaghan was a better villain. I already said that. I also already said that the villain doesn't matter a lot to me (unless in a case like Megamind or Despecible Me when the villain is the main character). I also don't think the motive make a good villain. As I said before, Callaghan as the villain was predictable and his whole costume was strange and appeared very unrealistic when the movie is set in a modern-day big city.

Aren't villains usually main characters? The villain adds an immense amount to the movie, how can it not matter to you? The motive is exactly what makes him a good villain, 'twas realistic and relatable. It was actually a city from the future. =P

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

Okay, now you're just being rather ridiculous, Novatom. How could a villain's mask possibly effect your ability to enjoy a movie? Why should it matter how"risky" it was? He was on a deserted island, for crying out loud. What kind of mask are you suggesting he wear instead? Can you please just break down and admit that you like Frozen better because it's a musical Disney Princess movie and BH6 isn't?

[TigerShadow]

I mean that I don't think a modern criminal would dress like that. Yes, he would want to conceal his face, but I think he could conceal it better. I mean, if you looked at someone like him, you would immediately know he was a villain, right? This would be extremely risky for him.

He wasn't even intending to do anything long-term, though. It was "replicate the microbots, attack Krei, destroy his new facilities and kill him with the same technology used to kill Abigail". You'll notice that at no point in the movie did Callaghan attempt at villainous posturing or evilly hammy diatribes—he was intending to go in, do the job, and get out somehow as fast as he possibly could, so he clearly wasn't all about keeping the secret for long, nor, I think, did he really count on Hiro and friends throwing a wrench into his operation or discovering his identity.

So for what he planned to be an operation that would run as short as he could allow it, I think going for an intimidating appearance was part of the fear factor—simply put, I think he wanted to scare the living daylights out of Krei as much as he wanted revenge on him. So "looking like a villain" was totally intentional, and considering how utterly terrified Krei was of him, it worked.

I don't know who Isis is or what joker you're talking about.

ISIS is the Islamist terrorist group that's been wreaking havoc over the entire Middle East, and the Joker is Batman's archnemesis.

Also, as far as intimidating clothing is concerned, we can add the Ku Klux Klan to that list. The white robes and masks with pointy white hats are pretty obvious, and after a certain point they became pretty obviously evil, being associated with the Klan, but the group wore them anyway as a means of intimidating people.

[Novatom]

The villain's mask was unrealistic. That isn't the only reason I don't like BH6 as much as Frozen. Frozen being number one doesn't have to do with BH6 being bad, it's just Frozen was better, for reasons I have already said.

I didn't realize BH6 was set in the future. I'm not saying bad villains are okay, I'm just saying that the motive isn't the main thing that makes a villain good. The villains are not the main characters to me. The main characters are the main characters (Hiro in this case).

[TigerShadow]

The main characters aren't just the main protagonists; the main characters are the people who have the greatest impact on the story. Villains are absolutely the main characters; they just don't necessarily have the main story—but that doesn't mean that not telling theirs is excusable.