Disney's Big Hero 6 - SPOILERS!

[Novatom]

I like Frozen. The songs are catchy. The story line is interesting and entertaining. It has the twist at the end with Hans. It is a good movie.

BH6 however, is melodramatic (as I stated before). It has boring songs and a predictable storyline. The death of Hiro's brother was predictable. The villain turning out to be Callaghan was predictable.

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

WHAT?!?! I would say that BOTH of those events were just the opposite. The reveal of Callaghan as the villain was about as predictable as Hans being the villain. And, as you probably know, songs don't make a movie. Frozen was a musical, BH6 (wisely) wasn't. It simply followed a standard orchestra-based soundtrack with some electro pop hits thrown in that obviously didn't appeal to you. And Frozen is just as, if not MORE melodramatic than Big Hero 6, with the scene between Olaf and Anna at the fireplace and the ending where Anna froze completely... only to be unfrozen seconds later by the power of "love". Big Hero 6, on the other hand, gave us a rarity in animated films: it had a main character die and never come back. It was more realistic, and far more bittersweet than the occasionally sappy Frozen. It's clear you are rather biased, since you're giving flaws for Big Hero 6 that are just as applicable to Frozen. Since you don't really debate, though, I'll give you a break and completely drop the debate if you want to.

[TigerShadow]

As I've said before, "melodramatic" is a relative term. What is melodramatic to you is perfectly reasonable to others.

The villain turning out to be Callaghan might have been predictable (not sure how it was, since you won't elaborate on your point), but how predictable was his humanization? BH6 succeeds where Frozen doesn't in that it gives its villain humanizing qualities while still clearly communicating that he is nowhere near redeemed by story's end. Hans is evil For the Evulz™; Callaghan actually has a relateable reason to react the way he does, even if it's clear that he took his anger too far.

And when you look at Callaghan and Hiro as characters, it's very clear that they are foils to each other—brilliant men of science who handle grief poorly. Whereas Hiro has friends and a strong support system to help him through his rage and allow him to come to a better place, Callaghan is still so very broken, both mentally and emotionally. Hans really wasn't at all interesting as a villain by comparison.

Boring songs? I should remind you that this movie did not intend to be a musical. Other than one song that played over a montage and the opening riff to "Eye of the Tiger", this movie didn't have any songs in it that could be boring.

Tadashi's death might have been predictable...which is kind of why it was not only featured in the first twenty minutes of the movie, but was also featured in multiple trailers. That aspect isn't even problematic, imo.

As for the rest of the movie being predictable: did you honestly see everything coming? Like, everything, down to the littlest detail? Did you see the whole portal thing coming? Did you see the moment with Callaghan's daughter coming? Did you see Baymax sacrificing himself coming? And even if you did—being predictable is not necessarily bad; the saying goes that there are really only a few unique stories in the world, and they've been told a thousand times. BH6 being slightly predictable in the big areas of plot doesn't make for bad storytelling if the nuances weren't predictable.

[Novatom]

CT, I mean Ducky, I already said that I realize I am biased.
Hans being the villain might have been predictable for you, but it came as a shock to me. Frozen was not melodramatic! I cried in it!

[TigerShadow]

Just because you cried in Frozen doesn't make it dramatic or melodramatic. I found BH6 to be wonderfully realistic and relateable in terms of its drama, while you found it excessive. It's a difference of opinion, but one that you have to be able to articulate if you want to be heard the way you think you should be.

I have to wonder, Novatom, if you didn't go into BH6 with the underlying thought of "Well, it's not Frozen, and therefore it won't be as good as Frozen, so I won't like it". =/

[Novatom]

I had a completely open mind while watching BH6, Tigershadow. I do like it, I'm just saying that Frozen is still my favorite movie.

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

Not to reveal details that might scandalize this whole thing, but I seem to recall that Novatom didn't originally want to go see Frozen at the theater for undisclosed reasons. She seems to like the Disney Princess movie genre now: nothing wrong with that, but it means that she can't keep a fully open mind when watching a non-Disney Princess movie, since her mind will always be on the Disney Princess movies that she liked better than this movie. I'm not holding it against you, I do the same thing. Whenever I go see a movie that received a low critic's rating, I can never keep a fully open mind about it, and it can sometimes prevent me from enjoying the movie. So, perhaps the main problem is you simply don't appreciate this specific genre of movies (that is, modern geek superhero comedies parodying video games and Japanese culture), which is totally fine. Now I think we can all understand a bit better now why you couldn't articulate your opinions earlier in the debate: you couldn't appreciate the movie for what it WAS.

[Novatom]

As I've said before, "melodramatic" is a relative term. What is melodramatic to you is perfectly reasonable to others.

Novatom: I am fully aware of this.

The villain turning out to be Callaghan might have been predictable (not sure how it was, since you won't elaborate on your point), but how predictable was his humanization? BH6 succeeds where Frozen doesn't in that it gives its villain humanizing qualities while still clearly communicating that he is nowhere near redeemed by story's end. Hans is evil For the Evulz™; Callaghan actually has a relateable reason to react the way he does, even if it's clear that he took his anger too far.

When I said predictable, I meant that when the masked guy fell to the floor, I knew who he was. As for this whole "humanization" thing, I think both Hans and Callaghan's motives were relatable. Seeking revenge. Seeking power. And I must also point out that both are very cliche villain motivations.

And when you look at Callaghan and Hiro as characters, it's very clear that they are foils to each other—brilliant men of science who handle grief poorly. Whereas Hiro has friends and a strong support system to help him through his rage and allow him to come to a better place, Callaghan is still so very broken, both mentally and emotionally. Hans really wasn't at all interesting as a villain by comparison.

I accept this and agree with you though disagree that this makes Callaghan extremely "interesting", though I'll admit that Hans wasn't all that interesting.

Boring songs? I should remind you that this movie did not intend to be a musical. Other than one song that played over a montage and the opening riff to "Eye of the Tiger", this movie didn't have any songs in it that could be boring.

Okay, it still had that one song I didn't like.

Tadashi's death might have been predictable...which is kind of why it was not only featured in the first twenty minutes of the movie, but was also featured in multiple trailers. That aspect isn't even problematic, imo.

As for the rest of the movie being predictable: did you honestly see everything coming? Like, everything, down to the littlest detail? Did you see the whole portal thing coming? Did you see the moment with Callaghan's daughter coming? Did you see Baymax sacrificing himself coming? And even if you did—being predictable is not necessarily bad; the saying goes that there are really only a few unique stories in the world, and they've been told a thousand times. BH6 being slightly predictable in the big areas of plot doesn't make for bad storytelling if the nuances weren't predictable.

The whole movie wasn't predictable, just a few parts of it, which I already stated. And I also knew that Baymax would come back at the end. It's just what Disney does.

[TigerShadow]

Hans wasn't interesting? Callaghan is interesting? I don't get this.

What about that do you not get? I thought I explained what I thought pretty clearly.

I know the songs weren't important. I was merely comparing Frozen and BH6.

You can't compare an entirely instrumental movie score with that of a movie musical. The two are intrinsically different. Comparing Frozen and BH6 on the grounds of their music is like comparing the soundtracks of the Lord of the Rings and Phantom of the Opera.

As for this whole "humanization" thing, I think both Hans and Callaghan's motives were relatable. Seeking revenge. Seeking power.

Not really. Hans was pretty clearly intended to be a sociopath, as has been stated by one of the directors of the film. He's not an example of someone who went bad from sympathetic intentions and retains human characteristics; he's uncaring and clearly intended to be nothing but selfish and cruel. He does not have humanizing elements after it's revealed that everything that made him sympathetic was a ruse; he is clearly the Villain™, and that's it. Callaghan, on the other hand, is given a chance by Hiro to stop what he's doing, indicating a lot of inner turmoil, and his expression as he's hauled off by the police clearly shows remorse for what he has done and what he has become. How is Hans somehow more relateable, being someone who wants power because POWER, than Callaghan, who is essentially an example of what happens when you take your righteous rage too far? I'm going to guess that many more viewers have been in Callaghan's place than in Hans's.

[Samantha14]

ermagash the debates. I just got done debating with my best friend for over an hour, now I can't resist being sucked back into this topic too.

Ahhh, let's see. BIG HERO 6 IS *NOT* FROZEN. ahem. it is not a musical. it is not a princess story. it is not even about people with magic. it is about struggling, grieving teens learning to work together and use their intellect and emotion to help the world, and help build each other up over the loss of a true friend. It isnot disney's typical 'with magic, wishing on a star, and the power of love, dreams can come true if only you believe!!1!!!!!1!1! ;DDDdeDDCdD' films. Yes, a dream came true. Tadashi's dream of helping people with baymax came true. but he wasn't even there to see it. none of them dreamed of being superheroes. heck, half of them probably weren't sure of what they were doing post-college. but like hiro said at the end, sometimes life doesn't go as planned. they had to work for it. they had to put their hurt and grief and differences aside to try and take on someone whom they couldn't promise couldn't murder them before dawn. but they did anyway, not for glory, honor, or themselves, but to help. for people. for Tadashi. it showed love and friendship, yes, but no more than realistic standards. it didn't even have any romance, which hasn't happened with disney since... gosh. pinnochio? (sp?) actually, no, even that had a girl/guy fluster moment when the blue fairy said something to jiminy cricket. this movie had NOTHING. (okay except for my headcannons but I'm a fangirl so.) it had a human villain with hurt and struggle and HUMANITY. not a cold greedy tyrant looking for power. it had the loss and love of tadashi. it had the struggle to move on. and omg how do you not love baymax??

THAT IS MY CURRENT ARGUMENT. but I feel like I'm not exactly part of this conversation though... so. >.>

[Novatom]

Hans wasn't interesting? Callaghan is interesting? I don't get this.

What about that do you not get? I thought I explained what I thought pretty clearly.

Novatom: You explained. I just completely disagree with your explanation. I am not convinced.

I know the songs weren't important. I was merely comparing Frozen and BH6.

You can't compare an entirely instrumental movie score with that of a movie musical. The two are intrinsically different. Comparing Frozen and BH6 on the grounds of their music is like comparing the soundtracks of the Lord of the Rings and Phantom of the Opera.

Novatom: I was just searching for similarities in Frozen and BH6. Songs happens to be one of them. I probably shouldn't have compared those though...

[TigerShadow]

You explained. I just completely disagree with your explanation. I am not convinced.

Not being convinced and not getting what I was saying are two very different things, and it would be helpful when you say you don't get something or that you're not convinced of something that you explain yourself instead of simply declaring that you don't agree with my interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to just tell me you don't get it and not explain why.

[Wakko]

@Sam He wasn't a bad character, he just wasn't my favorite. =p He didn't seem to serve much of a purpose other than comic relief.
I went into both Frozen and Big Hero 6 with similar expectations knowing that they were both supposed to be very good movies, and I knew very little about both of them. I thought that Frozen was a good movie the first time I saw it, but after seeing it again realized that there was nothing special about it. Big Hero 6 is an interesting movie with lots of emotion, while Frozen is just another Disney Princess movie. =p I actually didn't know that Tadashi was going to die until I went to see the movie. =p I didn't find the movie "predictable" or "melodramatic" at all, I've never cried during a movie but I got very sad and on the verge of tears in this movie.
@Novatom What made you cry in Frozen? I can't think of anything that would make anyone cry.

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

Yeah, what did make you cry? Any attempt at genuine emotion in Frozen always felt a lot more phony than Big Hero 6 or even Tangled. It seems to me it had more to do with your love for the characters and songs in the movie than actual genuine emotion. The more I think about it, the more I realize, that aside from the catchy songs, I really don't like Frozen. I didn't laugh once at Olaf, I found Hans to be an odd and ultimately pretty boring villain, and Elsa's transformation from baddie to good person at the end was unsatisfying (to me) and random. Tiger shadow has brought up some fantastic points and you continually refuse to address them. I don't think you actually believe that Hans is a more relatable villain than Callaghan, you just insist so since you prefer Frozen to BH6 for reasons that have nothing to do with the villains.

I wasn't really a massive Fred fan either, Wakko. I actually found Wasabi to be a lot funnier, and considerably less annoying. He was by far my favorite of the team, excepting Hiro of course.

By the way, I never realized BH6 was based on a superhero comic book. That explains the weird superhero thing at the end.

[Doll]

Yeah, what did make you cry? Any attempt at genuine emotion in Frozen always felt a lot more phony than Big Hero 6 or even Tangled.

For the record, I don't cry at many movies. Frozen made me cry multiple times during both times I saw it in the theater.

(And yes, I do realize given not only the age gap, but also the gender gap, this won't be the same for everyone....but Frozen is quite moving in parts.. )

[Wakko]

It is indeed based off of a Marvel comic book series, this movie is the first Marvel Disney collaboration.
Plus, this movie had Baymax, who is absolutely amazing.
@Belle Like what parts? I can't think of any tear worthy moments.

[Novatom]

You explained. I just completely disagree with your explanation. I am not convinced.

Not being convinced and not getting what I was saying are two very different things, and it would be helpful when you say you don't get something or that you're not convinced of something that you explain yourself instead of simply declaring that you don't agree with my interpretation. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to just tell me you don't get it and not explain why.

I meant I don't get how you can believe these things you say.

[Doll]

@Belle Like what parts? I can't think of any tear worthy moments.

Um, well, her parents die, and the sisters each have no one to grieve with?

Then Anna dies, because she is frozen by Elsa, so Elsa is completely distraught?

[Novatom]

Yeah, what did make you cry? Any attempt at genuine emotion in Frozen always felt a lot more phony than Big Hero 6 or even Tangled. It seems to me it had more to do with your love for the characters and songs in the movie than actual genuine emotion. The more I think about it, the more I realize, that aside from the catchy songs, I really don't like Frozen. I didn't laugh once at Olaf, I found Hans to be an odd and ultimately pretty boring villain, and Elsa's transformation from baddie to good person at the end was unsatisfying (to me) and random. Tiger shadow has brought up some fantastic points and you continually refuse to address them. I don't think you actually believe that Hans is a more relatable villain than Callaghan, you just insist so since you prefer Frozen to BH6 for reasons that have nothing to do with the villains.

I cried in Frozen when Anna died and when their parents died. I don't find Olaf funny either. I never said Hans was a better villain or that he was more relatable than Callaghan, and I don't think he is. I said they are both relatable. I think Callaghan is the better villain (only slightly), but I don't think the quality of the villain makes a better movie. Also, Callaghan reminds me of a Scooby-Doo villain. Seriously, a guy dressed in black with a creepy mask attempting to kill people with little robots that he controls with his mind?

[Woody]

I, for one, liked Big Hero 6 much better than Frozen, if only for its lack of incredibly annoying songs(Kill me if you wish).

I found most(if not all) of the characters very real, and their emotions definitely kept me interested(if John Lasseter can pull off this much emotion in Big Hero 6, I can't wait for Inside Out). Hiro's reaction to his brother's death felt very real. I know most people expect a character to cry, but I find Hiro's lack of tears to be more realistic than anything I've yet seen in an animated picture. I can very much relate to Hiro in these scenes. I know that I personally have never shed a tear over someone close to me. I've never seen tears as a necessary part of mourning. Perhaps its just a guy thing, in which case Hiro was portrayed perfectly, but I'm not one to show my emotions, except in occasional outbreaks.

Callaghan was a huge surprise for me. From the very beginning, it was perfectly set up for Krei to be the villain. All the foreshadowing, right down to Callaghan accusing him of cutting corners to get what he wanted(it is my belief that the incident with Callaghan's daughter happened previously to the science exhibition). So when Callaghan was revealed to be the man in the mask, I was shocked(Especially considering he was supposed to be dead!). Callaghan's motives were understandable, and relatable. The parallels to Hiro's own emotions were evident, without a word being said about it. Callaghan, like Hiro, had lost someone he loved dearly, and he had someone to blame. Hiro found someone to blame in Callaghan, in that his brother died trying to save Callaghan, who managed to survive, making it that Tadashi had died for nothing. In many ways, Callaghan and Hiro were the same. Each had lost someone. Each were searching for revenge. Each had the power to destroy their enemy. Callaghan tried to kill Krei, and Hiro attempted to murder Callaghan in their island encounter. But that is where the beauty lies. In that the hero(or Hiro) had every reason to be the villain, and every reason to hate Callaghan. And in the end, he realized that that wasn't what Tadashi would have wanted. Tadashi wouldn't have wanted Hiro to avenge him. Tadashi created Baymax to help people, not to destroy those who didn't deserve to be helped. And that is one of the many places in this movie where you can see John Lasseter's genius.

Even in the more action-packed areas of the film, Lasseter's genius shines through. I think one of Lasseter's storytelling strategies is that things never work on the first try. Indeed, Hiro tried twice before he finally beat Callaghan. In the first encounter, the characters of GoGo, Wasabi, and Fred are explored, showing Wasabi's unwillingness to break the rules, GoGo's fast-paced thrill ride mentality, and Fred's rather interesting view that being chased by a supervillain is "awesome". In the second encounter, the team's desperate need for teamwork is shown, as well as Hiro's wish for revenge. And Baymax's unwillingness to harm a human being is shown, developing Tadashi's character, even after his death. In the third and final encounter, the team is defeated almost instantly. But then Hiro reminds them of Tadashi's words of wisdom from so early on in the film- to look at things from a different angle.

And, in the final character examination, BAYMAX. I love Baymax. He's so squishy and lovable. And his calm, cool, collected manner is reassuring and almost ironic throughout the entire film. It's so wonderful that he retains his initial purpose to help and to care for those who need him. "I fail to see how flying makes me a better healthcare companion." And his sacrifice for the lives of Hiro and Abigail was heartbreakingly beautiful. I think Tadashi's character lives on throughout the whole film in the form of Baymax.

Okay, maybe not the last. The other members of the team were fantastic, though I wish they had gotten a little more development. I hope that, like someone else said earlier in this thread, they will each get a half-hour short film to shine in.

And now I suppose it's time to give my(very short) list of complaints:

1. The Fire: I wish the fire had been explained. I know it could have been an accident. With so many robotics projects, any one of them could have burst into flames. But still, it felt as though Tadashi's death was somehow cheapened, in that he died for nothing, in a seemingly accidental fire, trying to save a man who saved himself. My own personal headcanon is that the fire was caused by a fight between Krei and Callaghan over the microbots.

2. The Portal World: Why is there some kind of extra world on the other side of the portal? And when there were two of them, how did whatever went in one know to come out the other? Also, if Abigail went into hypersleep, why didn't Hiro? I understand Baymax(he's a robot), but Hiro is completely human, and if Abigail went into hypersleep, Hiro should have too.

3. Fred's Bow Tie: Fred needed to wear that bow tie from the family portrait for the entirety of the film.

In short, Big Hero 6 will certainly put up a good fight against The Lego Movie for best animated picture of 2014.