Is man basically good, or basically evil?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Starflower you make a very good point. I would say though that we caused those things, notice that God says because you did this the ground is now cursed. I still contend that God did not curse the earth and cause natural disasters, Adam caused that by sinning.

I also still contend that God did not change our nature, He did not take away His image in us.

[Blitz]

I think the answer is that God gave us up. We kept choosing evil over good so he removed the basically good from us and the extremely powerful conscience that we gain more and more as we become Christ-like and let go.
Romans 1:16-32

[Eleventh Doctor]

I weep that anyone could think that God gave us up, that is a very sad view of the world to hold. You say we kept choosing evil over good, so that doesn't mean Adam then? When did God "give us up" and remove the good from us? Also would that mean we are no longer made in His image?

[Blitz]

God gave man kind up to his own desire IF the don't look to him for help. That is the point of Romans. You would have to study Romans extensively to get the whole picture. We are still in his image just he doesn't play as major a role in affairs as he used to. God gave us up to sin so we are no longer 'good' with out him. Man is not innocent or good in anyway with out God. I shudder when people call others, 'innocent'. Saying every one is basically good is like saying we are still in the Garden of Eden. Man had the choice and man chose evil above God. Thus God abandoned man to his sin and then turned around and provide a way of escape first through the sacrifice to Him and then through Jesus. But the core of man is sinful.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I have studied Romans actually. Can you expand on what you mean by God doesn't play a major role in affairs? To me that sounds like God has withdrawn from the world.

I agree that man is not good without God but at the same time we are all made by God and He makes us in His image, to me that says that the core of man is the image of God. That image has been corrupted by sin, I agree with that, but the core image of God is still there.

[Blitz]

God did not abandon the world or there would be absolutely no good. Man has no good with out God. God instead took a a different part in the world. Instead of doing things like the flood, Abraham, etc he went with Jesus Christ. Either you chose Him or the world.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I would argue that the plan was always for Christ to be incarnate and I think the incarnation proves that our human nature is at it's core good, otherwise how could Christ have been fully man? Christ came to renew our human nature to restore it to the core goodness that had been corrupted, but not abolished, by sin.

[Blitz]

Christians you realize are not even perfectly transformed. Only until we reach heaven are we completely changed thus the flaw with your argument. Jesus was a special case.

[Eleventh Doctor]

That's where we disagree, Christ told us to be perfect just as He was perfect, now I agree that the final transformation of our nature will be in heaven but if humanity is at it's very core evil and Christ was a special case then Christ was not truly fully human.

[Blitz]

Jesus was human as we will be human after the rapture in heaven.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I have to disagree very strongly with that, because then Christ was not fully human. He was something other than human. As St. Irenaeus of Lyons said: “For that which He has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole” Christ came to save us as a whole not as a half, not only that which we will be in heaven. If He did not assume our full human nature that we have while on earth then we are not saved.

[Blitz]

I know he was 100 percent man and 100 percent God being the Son of God. He was a complete anomaly in that sense.

[Eleventh Doctor]

And my point is that to be 100 percent man He would have to have the same core as us and so man cannot have an evil core.

[Helios]

Wait...if we are to have a resurrected body after the Rapture, a perfectly good body, untainted by sin, then wouldn't it stand to reason that Jesus' earthly form was that way? Therefore He could be 100% man and we could still be basically evil.

Just one way of looking at it.

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, because Christ's resurrected body was different after His resurrection, His own disciples didn't recognize Him and He could walk through walls. Christ was the exact same as us during His earthly ministry, 100% man, otherwise His death meant nothing, what was not assumed was not healed. So if we are basically evil then Christ was basically evil; which is not possible therefore man is not basically evil.

p.s. Can we start a new thread about the "rapture" and how it's a modern construct?

[Helios]

Hmm....I see your point. Hadn't thought of that. (tho I personally believe Christ blinded their minds to Him when He appeared, hence the lack of recognition...and being God, He coulda walked through walls before He died if He wanted to; He just never did)

I see no objection to starting a rapture thread. Sounds interesting.

[Eleventh Doctor]

You can believe those things, the point still stands that Christ was still 100% human like we are now, not like we will be in heaven. So was Christ basically good or basically evil?

[Blitz]

No, because Christ's resurrected body was different after His resurrection, His own disciples didn't recognize Him and He could walk through walls. Christ was the exact same as us during His earthly ministry, 100% man, otherwise His death meant nothing, what was not assumed was not healed. So if we are basically evil then Christ was basically evil; which is not possible therefore man is not basically evil.

No he did blind their mind and they though he was a ghost. At will he could make them not recognize him and then recognize him so his other body was similar. Remember the disciple just thought he was a ghost until he ate which proves he looked like he did before. And Christ is different from humans. He is not restricted by the same laws we are because of He was 100 % God.

[Pound Foolish]

Helios

So this teacher told you that God cursed the earth and other such Biblically sound ideas? You really need to reconsider. Is he loving and striving to be Godly? No doubt. is he theologically sound? Doubtful. You search for the church you "want" with the right feel seems to have led you to the last thing you need. What you need is what';s true.The people of today, a kind fellow who leads a garage mass with a nicey-nice feeling, MacArthur, what have you, will be forgotten tomorrow. As always. You'll never hear non sense like the idea we are cursed or have a sinful nature from CS Lewis. And it's people like him who have endured. They are the wise.

Bobbymac
One can think of all sorts of uses for making one's best friends think you are ghost... which is basically lying to them. Jesus: the first ghost prankster.

Besides, where in the Bible does it say the apostles thought he was a ghost?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Christ was 100% man, He could not be different than us, in that regard, or the incarnation is meaningless. If man's core is evil then Christ could not be 100% man. But if our core is good, because it is made in Christ's image, then Christ could become 100% man because it is His image, He is good.