Is man basically good, or basically evil?

[Helios]

How about Jeremiah 17:9?

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked. Who can know it?"

Is that what you mean, PF?

[Pound Foolish]

*yawn* Yes, like that one, sir. The Bible can't be always taken at face value. Evil is a huge part of the heart, of course. But...

Sirach 37:13-14 "13 Finally, stick to the advice your own heart gives you, no one can be truer to you than that; 14 since a person's soul often gives a clearer warning than seven watchmen perched on a watchtower."
Take that.

[Helios]

*yawn* Not in my Bible...sooo...

[Metal15]

*Yawn* Wow, we must all be tired.

Well, PF, that verse is a poor example of whether we have a sin nature or not. If you read a little farther back in Sirach(Also not in my Bible) it talks about asking people for advice and to consult godly counsel, to which it goes into your verse(which in the first translation I looked up says "At times a person’s intuition keeps them informed better than seven sentries sitting high up on a lookout."), and then goes to "but above everything else, pray to the Most High, so that he may make your path straight in truth." So the context of this verse is not purely on whether the human's heart is inherently good or inherently evil, as you can see it's just about taking advice.

And just to clarify, we don't believe that mankind can't think about doing ANY good whatsoever, buuut it seems pretty obvious that human's have got a sin-nature goin' on.

My turn to post a verse: Psalm 51:5, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

[Eleventh Doctor]

To clarify even further, Christian A. would say that mankind can't think about doing any good, without being saved first.

Also the verses cited change drastically depending on the translation. In my translation, the Septuagint, the verse about the human heart is actually Jeremiah 17:5 "The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him?" And Metals verse is in a completely different chapter and says "For I know my lawlessness, And my sin is always before me."

It seems to me that Protestants have drastically changed the translations of these verses to fit into their preconceived ideas about sin nature. So no Metal, it is not obvious that we have a "sin nature" as you define it, it is obvious though that your translations make it seem obvious.

[Metal15]

To clarify even further, Christian A. would say that mankind can't think about doing any good, without being saved first.

You should follow up with a quote, just to be sure. And if he does believe that, then I would have to disagree, because there are lots of people who are non-Christian and do good deeds.

the Septuagint

You can pull out the Greek if you like, but you're ignoring the hebrew which is the original masoretic text.

It seems to me that Protestants have drastically changed the translations of these verses to fit into their preconceived ideas about sin nature.

Probably not.

So no Metal, it is not obvious that we have a "sin nature" as you define it, it is obvious though that your translations make it seem obvious.

I wasn't referring to it being obvious just by looking at verses. I should have made that clear, but what I mean to say is that it seems obvious that mankind has some kind of a sin nature, just by opening our eyes and seeing all the wrong that's been done in our world. And it's not just some people, it's EVERY...SINGLE...PERSON.

[Eleventh Doctor]

His beliefs were expanded upon in the debate room in chat so I don't have a quote, ask him though.

Actually the Septuagint is older than the Masoretic, the Septuagint was translated in 300 BC, the Masoretic in 300 AD. Christ and the Apostles quoted the Septuagint, not the Masoretic.

I will come up with a response to your other point.

[Metal15]

Ok.

I'm sorry, my bad. But it was my understanding that the Masoretic defines not just the books of the Jewish canon, but also the precise letter-text of the biblical books in Judaism, as well as their vocalization and accentuation of the text that was formulated before the Septuagint was formed, meanwhile the Septuagint was a greek translation of the original jewish canon. Am I right?

[Blitz]

Have any of you ever read James?
But every man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.
James carry a lot of references to man's nature.

[sing]

wow! i read this entire thing and.......... I learned some things.

*begin rant*

1. You are going in circles.
2. I am glad I grew up the way I did. (taught by my father, a Greek and Hebrew teacher who also went through seminary. Why? he wanted to learn more about God and how to follow him. That's it.)
3. if the God (through the Bible) says something, believe it. Do. Not. Try. to. Explain. it. away. so that it fits what you want it to. (not trying to say that all of you guys are, but a few times it looked that way.) If God says something that you can't figure out, do not agonize over it if it has a way you can take it literally.


Anyway, in answer to the question posted: (is man basically good, or evil) for my two cents, man was basically good, but then sin entered the world, and that changed. Man became basically evil. GOD DID NOT CREATE BAD THINGS! he just created a man who can make his own descisions. Man can not be basically good by himself. He. needs. God.

P.S. isn't there an AIO episode on this? you know Connie and Eugene arguing?

Disclaimer: These are my thoughts and opinions, and you do not have to agree with them. Also, if you ask questions I will try to answer, but am not perfect so I will not always have a unflawed opinion or answer.

*end of rant*

[Eleventh Doctor]

just by opening our eyes and seeing all the wrong that's been done in our world. And it's not just some people, it's EVERY...SINGLE...PERSON.

I look and I see a lot of good that's been done in our world, sure there's evil and bad things but there are plenty of stories of people rising above those and doing good. I also think that our nature is renewed by God, we are not wholly without hope i.e. totally depraved. Our nature, at it's very core is good but it has been polluted in this fallen world. So no, our nature is not sinful it is good but our actions in this fallen world are often sinful.

The Masoretic text does indeed define the text, not just the canon, but the Masoretic text was developed primarily from earlier Hebrew and Greek texts, most of which were destroyed with the Temple in 70 AD. The new texts were developed in Rabbinical communities over the next few centuries before being finalized in the 7th century.

Now there were earlier Hebrew texts but those were not as uniform as the Masoretic texts of today because as the vernacular language changed the texts were updated. Also the Masoretic text is a specifically Rabbinical text, where as before the destruction of the Temple there were several religious factions in Judaism that had different canons and texts. The Dead Sea scrolls show us that each of these factions used different texts, some of them Hebrew but also some of them Greek. What the Dead Sea scrolls also show us is that the Septuagint is a translation of a much older Hebrew text, that has since been lost and was not, to my understanding, used in the Masoretic text. The Septuagint was translated by 72 scholars in Alexandria in 300 BC, it was the primary text used in Jesus' time, as is evidence by He and the Apostles quoting it in the New Testament. So no, the Masoretic text was not completed until nearly 1,000 years after the Septuagint.

if the God (through the Bible) says something, believe it. Do. Not. Try. to. Explain. it. away. so that it fits what you want it to. (not trying to say that all of you guys are, but a few times it looked that way.) If God says something that you can't figure out, do not agonize over it if it has a way you can take it literally.

This is faulty reasoning because it assumes that a literal reading is always the best reading. It also assumes that the Bible is the only way that God has communicated to us and that there is no context to Scripture. You also go and give an interpretation, so why aren't you taking your own advice?

[Helios]

I agree with ya, Sing. Tho I'm kinda curious now...what's the definition of basically? I mean, we throw this word around, but what does it actually mean?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Basically means "in the most essential respects; fundamentally." So it means are we fundamentally good or bad? What is our foundation? So to argue that we are fundamentally bad means that you are arguing that God made something fundamentally bad. Where as I am arguing that we are fundamentally good, since God made us in His image but that image has been tarnished by living in this fallen world.

[Helios]

But by what did the world fall? Man, of course. Which means that somewhere along the line, man's nature became fundamentally evil, since how else would someone who has seen God and walked with Him cause the world to fall? I believe that God did make man good because, as you implied, God doesn't make anything bad.

But when Adam sinned, the entire human race was doomed to be fundamentally evil. So now all of mankind is basically evil.

[jehoshaphat]

They could cause the world to fall because they had free will. They were deceived by Satan into believing lies. A fundamental part of something can't change. Because it is the foundation, without it it is something different. Man's nature is fundamentally good, and nothing can change that.

[Eleventh Doctor]

What Jehoshaphat said, if what you said is true then we are a completely different race than Adam. Also did God make you? If He did then you have to be fundamentally good.

[Helios]

Oh.....I see now what you mean, Eleventh and Jehoshaphat. Perhaps, in that sense, man is basically good. But then arises the question: If man is basically good, why does he sin? If the foundation of man is goodness, why does he commit evil? It seems suspect that a person or race who is basically good would ever want to commit evil, since their basic goodness would rebel against such an idea.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Because we live in a fallen world, our nature is corrupted, without changing the fundamental nature. We do have a conscience and when we do evil we know it's wrong but we justify it or we drown out our conscience.

[Helios]

Makes sense...sort of...did you mean conscience? Or is conscious something different?

However, no matter how much sense it makes to my corrupted human mind, I still believe that man is basically evil.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I did mean conscience, I have always been a horrible speller.

What? That makes no sense, what is your reason for still believing that? You must have a reason.

Okay then answer my question, did God make you?