Eastern Orthodox Q&A

[Eleventh Doctor]

Faith without works is dead. Orthodox believe that the purpose of life is Theosis or the redeeming of our human nature and this requires an ongoing synergistic relationship with God, of which baptism and chrismation are only the beginning. Because the relationship is synergistic if we don't follow through then we do not grow closer to God and in fact can grow apart from God. But no that doesn't negate baptism it just means you've stopped in your journey toward Theosis.

[Striped Leopard]

Could one still go to heaven if he was baptized as a baby/child, but then did not "follow through" on it?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I can't say, the normative means of salvation is to follow through but if the child died at a young age I can't say. I would hope so but the Orthodox Church has specifically avoided saying "These are the specific requirements for going to heaven." There are as I said the normative means but to say that is the only way would be limiting God.

[Striped Leopard]

Ah, yes. Limiting God. *sighs*

What do you think about the Mormon practice of baptism of the dead, in order to give them a better chance at heaven--after they've already died?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Sorry if limiting God is not a phrase you like.

I don't agree with the practice, not least of all because I think the person be baptized needs to be there physically.

[arwen]

wow your out of college?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes I am :-) Did you have any other questions?

[Striped Leopard]

I don't like the idea that people like you and bookworm, among others, seem to have, that God didn't tell us the only way of salvation in the Bible. You always leave the door open for others outside of Jesus, saying that God can do whatever He wants and we shouldn't limit Him. I don't think we're limiting Him, because He's already limited Himself (if you want to put it that way) by saying that there is no other name under heaven that can save besides Jesus.

So the person should be there physically... but they don't need to be there mentally, as in the case of an infant?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I agree with you God did tell us how to be saved, believe on The Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. At the same time St. Augustine said we know where the Church is but not where it isn't. The thief on the Cross was saved but no one could argue his is the normative means of salvation yet he was saved.

The child is joining the Church just as children in the Old Testament were joined to the covenant through circumcision. And I would say that no the person doesn't always need to be mentally there, would you say then that mentally disabled individuals shouldn't be baptized?

[Striped Leopard]

I would argue that knowing where the Church is implies that we know where it is not.

And... I would also argue that the thief on the cross was saved through the normative means of salvation. He saw himself as a sinner; he saw Jesus as the perfect Man that He was; He believed that Jesus had the power to save him. That's all it takes. Even today. I think he was saved just like anyone else was, is, and ever will be.

Good question... I would say they should only be baptized if there is clear evidence that they have repented and are believing on Christ for salvation. Additionally, if someone got saved and then suffered a mental illness, they could be baptized. But, as a general rule, I don't think it makes sense to baptize people who barely have the ability to understand spiritual truths, and who couldn't really testify to that fact even if they did.

[Eleventh Doctor]

How would you define where the Church is?

I guess a better term than normative means of salvation would be normative way of Christian living. Also as we've discussed before I don't see salvation as just a one time event so that's why Christian living might be a better term.

I can understand what you're saying given your belief about what salvation and baptism are why the person would need to show an intellectual understanding of salvation. But coming at it from my point of view I just can't agree.

[Striped Leopard]

The Church is the Bride of Christ, whom He died for, who truly believe in Him and trust in His righteousness. They are the visible representation of Him to the world. The Church is comprised of all of Christ's true followers all over the world. Anyone who is trusting in anything other than Jesus' sacrifice for their salvation is not part of the Church, according to the Bible.

I don't see salvation as a one-time event either. Justification is a one-time event, which happens at the moment that the Holy Spirit regenerates a heart and enables one to repent and believe the gospel. Sanctification is the process of growing in the fruit of the Spirit and fighting against sin, striving for holiness until death. Glorification is God's granting us a new, glorified body completely free from the effects of the fall and no longer plagued by indwelling sin. All of those are elements of salvation. The thief on the cross experienced all of those just like we do, only he experienced them at a more accelerated pace than most.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I would call that view the invisible church, i.e. there is no earthly instituted Church but simply all those who believe in Christ where ever they are. To give you my perspective I would quote St. Ignatius of Antioch in defining a visible instituted Church "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop." So when I say we know where the Church is but not where it isn't, I am saying that where the bishop is there is the Church but there can be those who believe in Christ but are not in the Church. That's my perspective.

I think we agree in essence just not on the definitions. I don't see the need to define every step of the way and would probably say that there are parts of justification, sanctification, and glorification happening through out our life as Christians but in the end I think we essentially agree.

[Striped Leopard]

In one sense, I believe there is an earthly instituted Church. Christ gave the apostles the authority to preach the gospel and be instruments in His hand to bring thousands into the Church. They started the Church on earth, and it was definitely visible. The "invisible" Church is made up of all true Christians, who for the most part attend visible churches across the world. I agree with Ignatius' statement. Christians should not be separated from the visible church, unless all of the churches around them are corrupt and "unattendable." Then they should seek to either move or start a new church.

Unfortunately, the fact that you don't see the need to lay out definitions, and that you think certain aspects like justification can be happening throughout our lives as Christians, means that we do not essentially agree. One-time justification is one of the core elements of Protestantism. God justifies us when the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to us, and we trust in it alone for acceptance with Him, and He therefore accepts us, not because of anything we've done, but solely because of Jesus' merit. And Jesus' merit continues to be the only reason He accepts us throughout our Christian walk. Only because we are past-tense justified can we be present-tense sanctified. If we are working toward justification, we cannot be sanctified, because we have not been set apart as holy, so that we may work towards holiness... if that makes any sense.

On a different note, do you have any biblical justification for setting apart unique individuals in church history as "Saints," when Paul calls all Christians "saints" multiple times throughout his epistles, since all Christians are set apart as holy in God's sight through union with Christ?

[Eleventh Doctor]

So who is your bishop?

I can see where you're coming from, I don't agree with one time justification but I understand what your reasoning is.

All Christians are saints, the Saints are those whose lives we hold up to be especially exemplary and worthy of imitation. St. Paul in Hebrews 11 talks about the great faith of the Saints of the Old Testament, Abraham, Sarah, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, etc. and then in Hebrews 12 he talks about a great cloud of witnesses. To me this is the first list of Saints, heroes of faith worthy of imitation who are always around us and to who we can turn, just as you turn to members of the earthly church.

[Striped Leopard]

My pastor. If you recall, I've given you examples of passages that show that the words bishop and elder are synonymous. My pastor is my bishop, an example of Christ, "the Shepherd (pastor) and Overseer (bishop) of my soul."

Yay! We're really making progress here. You're understanding my arguments more than ever before! And I love the tone of this conversation. We need to start moving all of our debates over here.

Okay, sure, it's fine to herald saints from the past as especially commendable and worthy of imitation. But why call them St. So-and-so, and, again, why choose "turning" to them instead of just turning to the Holy Spirit--God indwelling us--and to God our Father, and to Jesus our intercessor? I guess what I'm asking is, what are they going to do for us that God can't?

Another random question. Why do we need priests if Christ gave one sacrifice, once for all, and we no longer need individuals who will intercede for us, because Jesus is forever our intercessor in heaven. In addition, Jesus says (somewhere, I forget where) not to call anyone in a teacher position "Father," because only God is our Father. But don't you call priests "Father"?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Unlike Roman Catholicism my priest is not an intercessor for me to God during confession he is a witness to my confession to God. He does absolve my sins though as Christ said to the Apostles in John 20:21-23 " So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

I don't call my priest father like I call God Father, I call him father because he is my spiritual father.

[gabbygirl17]

Do you believe Jesus is the only way to Heaven?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

[Striped Leopard]

Do you believe like the Catholics do that Jesus was omnipresent in His human nature the same way He is as God?