Why pray? (Calvinism vs. Arminanism)

[Striped Leopard]

Okay.... since it's obvious that you haven't paid much attention to some of the points I presented you with--such as the hardening of Pharaoh's heart, my point that nowhere in Scripture does it say that God chose everyone, etc.--and also because I have absolutely no time to be spending in this debate, I think I'm going to concede to you, even though I have responses to everything you posted. You're a pretty good debater, even though you do ignore half of the points I present to you. Thanks for taking the time to fight this out with me. :-) But I must move on.

[Aaron Wiley]

Thanks for your compliments, I do enjoy debating with people because I feel like it challenges my beliefs, and help me to understand better why I believe what I believe, and if I should even be believing that way in the first place. Sorry for not addressing every point you make each time, it's just that if I had, the posts would end up getting too large. I did my best to address the main ideas presented, but my attention to detail hasn't always been the best. (I thought the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was explained well enough by God's girl. God hardened Pharaohs heart, yes, but only to show Moses that he was that powerful. Besides, Pharaoh wasn't going to drop everything and become a follower of God anyway. Pharaoh had already hardened his heart towards God, God just hardened his heart further towards the Israelites.)

Thanks for fighting with me. You seem quite confident in your beliefs as well. *shakes hand*

[Striped Leopard]

*runs in to shake Aaron's hand*

Thank you as well. I enjoy debates like this for the same reason as you. Sorry if I was a little hard on you at times.

*runs back to being busy*

[Pound Foolish]

Um, God didn't necessarily literally use his power to make Pharoa cruel. That would be forcing himself onto a human's will, nature, and, obviously, heart, as the line goes. But God would never force himself on one of his creation's will. That's the whole point of choice between good and evil. Come on, this is basic.

[Striped Leopard]

If it's so "basic" then why don't I see it in Scripture? The Bible never says that God will not force Himself on His creation's will. I don't know where you get this idea.

John 6:44= "No man can come to me unless the Father Who sent Me draws Him..."

Where is the "choice" in that verse? It sounds to me like God is overriding whatever "will" we have as humans, in order to draw us to Himself.

And what about all of the verses in Psalm 14 and Romans 3 that say that all man ever does is evil? And Romans 8 that says that the sinful man cannot submit to God's will? Where is the choice in that? We had our choice in the garden. According to Romans 5, we sinned in Adam, and the consequence is a will that is bent toward evil and only evil. Therefore, God must intervene if we are ever to believe and be saved.

[Aaron Wiley]

We had our choice in the garden.

Mmhmmm... Yes... Because we were all there in the beginning and had that chance to choose for ourselves... It's our fault Adam sinned.

I thought you were too busy to continue with this?
Anyway, I may add that you haven't addressed any of the scripture I've posted in my arguments either. The only points you're making here with the scripture being posted is one that we already agree upon, man cannot be holy on his own. The only point still up for argument is whether or not man chooses to allow God to help him, or whether God forces his help upon him (and, as a sub-question, whether or not God gives this help to everyone, which I believe I already addressed with the incredibly simple terms of John 3:16). You can't say that none of this is in scripture, because I've already shown you plenty of examples from scripture.

[Striped Leopard]

We had our choice in the garden.

Mmhmmm... Yes... Because we were all there in the beginning and had that chance to choose for ourselves... It's our fault Adam sinned.

You cut off the rest of my words on that subject. I said that in Romans 5 (verse 12, to be exact), Paul says that we all sinned in Adam. Yes, it is our fault that Adam sinned. God made him our representative (and who better to choose than God, by the way?), and so when he sinned, he represented what all of us would have done. We ALL would have made the same choice as he did. Therefore, spiritual death spread to all of us, because all of us sinned.

I thought you were too busy to continue with this?

You are correct. But when PF made that ridiculous statement that it is a basically-held truth that God "never forces Himself upon His creation," I had to interject.

Anyway, I may add that you haven't addressed any of the scripture I've posted in my arguments either. The only points you're making here with the scripture being posted is one that we already agree upon, man cannot be holy on his own. The only point still up for argument is whether or not man chooses to allow God to help him, or whether God forces his help upon him (and, as a sub-question, whether or not God gives this help to everyone, which I believe I already addressed with the incredibly simple terms of John 3:16). You can't say that none of this is in scripture, because I've already shown you plenty of examples from scripture.

You're right. I didn't address every Scripture you gave me. I rather addressed them in more broad terms. With regard to your passages about the fact that God gives men choices, I said that just because God gives men a choice doesn't mean that they have the ability to choose correctly. God, in essence, gave Pharaoh the choice to or not to let His people go, even though He already knew He would harden his heart so that he couldn't let them go. It's the same way with everyone else. God gives commands, but because of our choice to destroy our free will, we cannot choose the good.

Yes, God offers salvation to all men--to the whole world. But, again, that doesn't mean that we have the ability to initiate that salvation on our own. As I said by quoting John 6:44, God must draw us to Himself; we can't come on our own. His drawing is effectual; everyone He draws will believe, because Jesus says later on in the verse that whoever is drawn by the Father will be raised up by Him in the last day. But there is nowhere in Scripture that says that God draws every single person and gives every single person the ability to trust in Christ. There are only verses that say that we can do no good and that God must do the saving.

[Aaron Wiley]

just because God gives men a choice doesn't mean that they have the ability to choose correctly.

Aaannd you've effectually nullified the very definition of the word "choice" yet again. This is really the only point that needs to be addressed, as all the other arguments are resting on this one fact. If we have a choice, that means we CHOOSE. Not God, us. We choose. If we don't, it's not a choice, it's a command. It's as simple as that.

[Striped Leopard]

Okay, yes. I should rephrase that. God tells men to choose between right and wrong. But man does not have that choice. God never says, "You have the choice to choose life or death." He just says, "Choose life; don't choose death." But because we already chose death in Eden, we can only choose death now, until He enables us to choose life.

[Aaron Wiley]

Alright, so we can only choose life when he enables us to. According to Calvinism, does that mean after he "draws us to him" we have a choice, or are we again forced to choose that by his very drawing? If it's true that God's ABSOLUTELY sovereign, then how did even Adam have a choice in the garden? Shouldn't he have been controlled by God too, as we all are now (again, according to your beliefs I'm asking this).

Anyway, in response to your post above, I say this: If the Bible says to "Choose life" that immediately implies that we have the ability to choose. It doesn't ever say that man cannot choose, it just says that man is not good on his own. The exact phrasing is that man can do "no good" on his own, but that's hyperbole. There are plenty of men on this earth who are not Christians, but are still doing good for the world. The only thing that verse means is that man, on his own, is not holy. The other point you keep pushing is that no man can come to God unless he first draws him. This is scriptural, correct, but it never in scripture says that God only draws certain people (as far as I can tell anyway. Maybe I'm skipping over something). In all the situations it talks about salvation, it talks about how it's for all men, Jew and Gentile alike.

[Striped Leopard]

Alright, so we can only choose life when he enables us to. According to Calvinism, does that mean after he "draws us to him" we have a choice, or are we again forced to choose that by his very drawing?

When God draws us, we are thereafter saved, without any elapse of time. According to Jesus' words in that same verse, all whom the Father draws, the Son will raise up at the last day. Therefore, there is no one whom God draws who will not be saved.

If it's true that God's ABSOLUTELY sovereign, then how did even Adam have a choice in the garden? Shouldn't he have been controlled by God too, as we all are now (again, according to your beliefs I'm asking this).

Keep in mind, these are not just my personal beliefs, but they are the words of God, the doctrines put forth in Scripture. And this is how Scripture has been interpreted by multitudes of men, dating all the way back to the early days of the church.

Adam had a choice because he was created perfect, but mutable. Meaning then, that he had the ability to choose good, but also the ability to choose evil, and because he had the ability to choose evil, he was liable to change (mutability). God was as much in control of him, however as He is in control of us. Today, God allows everything evil that happens, and He causes everything good that happens (because nothing good can happen apart from His direction, as I'll address later). In the garden, God was totally sovereign over the situation. Man acted according to the will God had instilled in him. He choose freely. Today, however, we cannot choose in this same way, because our nature renders us inable to choose good. We can only do evil.

Anyway, in response to your post above, I say this: If the Bible says to "Choose life" that immediately implies that we have the ability to choose.

I've already given you examples where God tells His creation to do something, either knowing that they are unable to perform the task, or directly keeping them from completing the task by removing His restraining grace from them.

In the situation with Pharaoh, God told him to let the people of Israel go. But, beforehand, He had already told Moses that He would harden Pharaoh's heart. God hardened Pharaoh's heart in the sense that He did not do anything to enable Pharaoh to make the right decision. You see, there's a theological concept called "common grace" which basically refers to the goodness and mercy of God in restraining us humans from being as bad as we can be, sinning all day long. When God hardened Pharaoh's heart, He took away the common grace that had been restraining Pharaoh from sinning to the fullest extent, and Pharaoh was evil to his fullest potential.

In the case of the people of Israel, we find multiple occasions in the Old and New Testaments where God has given them commands, but He blinds their eyes and deadens their hearts, so that they will not obey Him! And then, at the same time, Jesus weeps because they have turned away from Him! You see, you are correct, there does seem to be this conflict between what God causes in unbelievers' hearts and what they are held accountable for. But the thing is, Scripture doesn't have a problem with that conflict! Jesus says that God has "blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, lest they should turn and I would heal them," and then He turns around and says that it was Jerusalem's fault that they were hardened. It's not something Jesus had a problem with, so I don't have a problem with it either.

It doesn't ever say that man cannot choose, it just says that man is not good on his own. The exact phrasing is that man can do "no good" on his own, but that's hyperbole. There are plenty of men on this earth who are not Christians, but are still doing good for the world. The only thing that verse means is that man, on his own, is not holy.

Seriously? You’re going to say that Paul was using hyperbole when he quoted that passage in Romans 3? Okay, fine. I’ll go along with that. But you’ll have to discount all of the other verses that touch on this issue as well:
Genesis 8:21 says that every imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
Ecclesiastes 9:3, “the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil.”
Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20, “There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.”
Isaiah 64:6-7, “We are all like an unclean thing, All our righteousness is like filthy rags....There is no one who calls on Your name.”
Isaiah 9:17, “For everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer, And every mouth speaks folly.”
Jeremiah 18:12, “So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”

And this one is a very key verse: Jeremiah 13:23, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.”

Could that verse be any more clear? Just as helpless as the one with dark skin is to make his skin light, and just as helpless as the leopard is to get rid of his spots, so are we as humans helpless to do good, as we naturally do evil. You can’t get around this in the Bible! We are just totally incapable of doing any good, plain and simple. Sure, there are endless instances of native, unbelieving man doing things which appear to be good. But the truth is, without God, they are bound to do those things with wrong intentions and motives and attitudes. And because those actions come out of an evil heart, they mean absolutely nothing to God.

The other point you keep pushing is that no man can come to God unless he first draws him. This is scriptural, correct, but it never in scripture says that God only draws certain people (as far as I can tell anyway. Maybe I'm skipping over something). In all the situations it talks about salvation, it talks about how it's for all men, Jew and Gentile alike.

God only chooses a select amount of people. There are a multitude of verses in Scripture that talk about God’s elect. The very term “elect” means chosen out of something. You can elect all there is to choose from. God choose a very specific people whom He would call, draw, and ultimately save. Romans 8 says that those whom God calls, He also justifies and glorifies. People are not drawn and called without also being saved.

[DragRacingFanatic]

But what about Ephesians 4:17-24?

20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Man on his own is not capable of doing good, but God's Spirit enables us to do good. With God's power we can choose to put of the old man and put on the new.

Ephesians 4:30-32:

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

The Holy Spirit enables us to do good, but doesn't force us. We can choose to grieve the Holy Spirit, or to follow Him.

Just my humble opinion.

[Striped Leopard]

I agree. The Holy Spirit enables us to do good. But we cannot choose the Holy Spirit. That would be doing good, submitting to the will of God, which Romans 8:5 (or 6) tells us is impossible for sinful man. We cannot do good until the Holy Spirit changes our hearts and our wills. It is God who takes off our old man and puts on our new man. Just like a dead man can't make himself alive, we cannot resurrect our dead souls. God must do it; we have no say in the matter.

[Aaron Wiley]

Seriously? You’re going to say that Paul was using hyperbole when he quoted that passage in Romans 3? Okay, fine. I’ll go along with that. But you’ll have to discount all of the other verses that touch on this issue as well:
Genesis 8:21 says that every imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
Ecclesiastes 9:3, “the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil.”
Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.”
Ecclesiastes 7:20, “There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.”
Isaiah 64:6-7, “We are all like an unclean thing, All our righteousness is like filthy rags....There is no one who calls on Your name.”
Isaiah 9:17, “For everyone is a hypocrite and an evildoer, And every mouth speaks folly.”
Jeremiah 18:12, “So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”

And this one is a very key verse: Jeremiah 13:23, “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.”

Could that verse be any more clear? Just as helpless as the one with dark skin is to make his skin light, and just as helpless as the leopard is to get rid of his spots, so are we as humans helpless to do good, as we naturally do evil. You can’t get around this in the Bible! We are just totally incapable of doing any good, plain and simple. Sure, there are endless instances of native, unbelieving man doing things which appear to be good. But the truth is, without God, they are bound to do those things with wrong intentions and motives and attitudes. And because those actions come out of an evil heart, they mean absolutely nothing to God.

I should first address that your comments about your view being the absolute "correct" view, because you say that's what the Bible teaches, and there have been plenty of other Calvinists in history too. This not conclusive at all, because there are just as many (almost definitely more) people who disagree with this teaching, and judge by what the Bible teaches that this doctrine is incorrect. Don't act like I'm not speaking from scripture either, that's just degrading.

Anyway, to address this scripture, I'm not sure how you're trying to draw a point from these. the only consistent point in all of these verse is that man has a sin nature, and even then, most of the phrases are used hyperbolic as poetic devices. None of this really backs up the Calvinistic belief that man has no will of his own.

I was also wondering if (since you've decided you're still up for this debate) you could address the point I made in my last post before you decided to end the discussion. What purpose does our worship and praise serve if we aren't even the one's choosing to do it? Why do we even need a Bible if the only way we can serve God is if he draws us? If we're nothing more than puppet's, we don't really have any purpose in living, do we?

[Striped Leopard]

I should first address that your comments about your view being the absolute "correct" view, because you say that's what the Bible teaches, and there have been plenty of other Calvinists in history too. This not conclusive at all, because there are just as many (almost definitely more) people who disagree with this teaching, and judge by what the Bible teaches that this doctrine is incorrect. Don't act like I'm not speaking from scripture either, that's just degrading.

One, I never said, "My view is the absolute correct view." I said that it is what many (albeit a minority) great men of the past have interpreted the Bible to mean. You seemed to be indicating that these were merely my beliefs. I was just letting you know that I don't want them to be viewed as simpy "my beliefs," but as what I believe to be timeless truths gleaned from the Bible by thousands who have gone before me. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Knox, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John Owen, John Gill, Asahel Nettleton, John Newton, Isaac Watts, William Perkins, and so many other countless great men of the faith have taught these truths. And they always backed it up with loads of Scripture. I don't mean to degrade your view, but it seems like at times you have dismissed Scriptures I have posted or have neglected to address them entirely. I have tried to address every passage you have given me, and if I haven't, please bring it to my attention, so I can tell you how I deal with it.

Anyway, to address this scripture, I'm not sure how you're trying to draw a point from these. the only consistent point in all of these verse is that man has a sin nature, and even then, most of the phrases are used hyperbolic as poetic devices. None of this really backs up the Calvinistic belief that man has no will of his own.

The consistent point in all of the passages was that man is desperately wicked and unable to perform good! That was my expressed point in posting all of the verses. The Jeremiah passage clearly says that just as a leopard cannot change his spots, so sinful man cannot change his nature and do good. I don't know how you can dismiss most of those as hyperbole. Who gets to determine what is hyperbolic and what isn't? Oh, and by the way, I never said that man does not have a will of his own. Nor is that a Calvinistic belief. The belief I proposed to you is that man has a will, but that will is in bondage; it is unable to act other than according to its nature. Its nature is nothing but sinful, as I showed you--therefore it can do nothing but sin.

I was also wondering if (since you've decided you're still up for this debate) you could address the point I made in my last post before you decided to end the discussion. What purpose does our worship and praise serve if we aren't even the one's choosing to do it? Why do we even need a Bible if the only way we can serve God is if he draws us? If we're nothing more than puppet's, we don't really have any purpose in living, do we?

Oh, yes, sorry. I forgot to address that. You said:

If we have no free will, the Bible is useless. Also, our worship is meaningless, since it isn't really us worshiping God, it's just him "making" us do it. So, God becomes the figure of an incredibly proud puppeteer, who creates this sort of "puppet" simply yo worship himself with his own hands. Don't get me wrong, God deserves all the glory of the universe, but the God that worships himself is not the God described by scripture.

The Bible is not useless.... Where did you get that idea? The Bible tells us of our wonderful God and what He did to save us. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." "Whatever things were written in the past were written for our learning, that we, through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope." And after we are saved, the Bible serves to inform us as to how we are to obey and please this great God Who has so graciously saved us.

Furthermore, our worship is totally sincere, because we are doing it out of our own will. Remember, God changes our hearts so that we are now able to love and obey Him. But, in a sense, God is still behind our obedience ("Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to work according to His good pleasure."). We are worshipping God out of genuine gratitude that arises from our changed hearts, and we worship Him out of changed desires and a changed will. None of it is Him forcing us, because we at any time are able to disobey Him. But as Christians, we long to obey Him because of what He has done for us.

But you are correct, God is still behind it all. We can do nothing righteous without His Holy Spirit's aid. (You do believe that, right?) So, yes, in a sense, God is working things out so that He will be worshipped and His Name will be glorified. That is the God we serve. "I will not share My glory with another." If He did anything but glorify Himself, He would be committing the sin of idolatry, which, obviously, is not possible for God. He does all things to glorify His own name and make His fame known in all the earth, and there is nothing wrong with that.


Now... since I have now gone back and addressed one of your previous arguments, would you mind going back and addressing my rebuttal of your idea that God chooses everyone or that He draws everyone?

[Aaron Wiley]

I was just letting you know that I don't want them to be viewed as simpy "my beliefs,"

But see, that's all they really are. At least, they're only what you (and other like minded people) determine to be true according the the verses that you want to focus on. We only have what the Bible teaches. It's just difficult because so many people interprete these truths differently. We're both reading the same Bible, but seeing two completely different things. Therein lies the problem...

The consistent point in all of the passages was that man is desperately wicked and unable to perform good! ...

If this is what you take out of these verses, I suppose that's fine... It just doesn't seem to correspond very well with the verses you've posted above. I'm not one to say that I'm a better interpreter of scripture than you, I simply can't see how you're drawing the conclusions you are from these verse. You've attempted to explain them, but the arguments used are less than convincing.

That was my expressed point in posting all of the verses. The Jeremiah passage clearly says that just as a leopard cannot change his spots, so sinful man cannot change his nature and do good. ... I don't know how you can dismiss most of those as hyperbole. Who gets to determine what is hyperbolic and what isn't?

Exactly, a man cannot change his NATURE on his own, and as a result of that, he cannot "do good" in the sense that he cannot "be holy". It's quite obvious (to me at least) that he's not using this expression to say that man is physically incapable to do ANYTHING good whatsoever without the assistance of God, because there are plenty of people out there like Ghandi, Bill Gates and Obama who used what they had do good in the world. (Ok, I'm kidding about the Obama part, haha. I was just seeing if I could get you to scream and pull your hair for a minute before you decided to read the rest). Christianity isn't the only religion that is based on a doctrine of peace, so how can you say that it's physically impossible for man to do ANY good whatsoever without God working through him. Does God work through people he hasn't chosen to join him in heaven as well according to Calvinism?

Oh, and by the way, I never said that man does not have a will of his own. Nor is that a Calvinistic belief. The belief I proposed to you is that man has a will, but that will is in bondage; it is unable to act other than according to its nature. Its nature is nothing but sinful, as I showed you--therefore it can do nothing but sin.

So what does this mean practically? Does man have any choice at any time in his life? If so, what sorts of choices is he allowed to make? Just normalish daily life kinda stuff, like what to eat for breakfast, but his will is immidiately turned off when it comes to making decisions about what he believes to be true? Where's the line between will and divine intervention? Does God literally preordain every physical action that happens on earth, like the female in the video I originally posted proposed? I have a hard time with this question too, but I'd like to know what Calvinists think about it.

The Bible is not useless.... Where did you get that idea?

I believe I explained that in my posts, haha. Without free will, any sort of worship means absolutely nothing.

The Bible tells us of our wonderful God and what He did to save us. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." "Whatever things were written in the past were written for our learning, that we, through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope."

What need to we have for faith if the only means we have of redemption is by being chosen as one of the elect? Why bother learning his commands if we're already made to do good by God's simple will?

And after we are saved, the Bible serves to inform us as to how we are to obey and please this great God Who has so graciously saved us.

Why would I want to worship a God who's willfully allowing people to die for a sin nature they didn't ask for and didn't do anything to deserve? That doesn't sound like a just God to me...

Furthermore, our worship is totally sincere, because we are doing it out of our own will. Remember, God changes our hearts so that we are now able to love and obey Him. But, in a sense, God is still behind our obedience

I don't understand this proposition at all, do we have free will, or not? Do we only obtain the choice to worship God after he calls us? In that case, it seems like God is being unfair in the matter again, giving some the ability to choose him and [censored] the rest without a second thought. The real point I'm getting at here is that I want to know if people can still choose to reject God after he draws them according to your beliefs.

But you are correct, God is still behind it all. We can do nothing righteous without His Holy Spirit's aid. (You do believe that, right?)

I believe that we can only be righteous if the Holy Spirit helps us. I do not believe that a none-believer is literally incapable of any sort of good because I've seen people who aren't Christians do good, and I've seen "Christians" to despicable things. We're more inclined to do good once we choose to follow the way of Christ because we no longer have a sin nature. We still do sin, though, which relates back to my previous argument about the unfairness of God choosing only certain "elect" to have a free will to choose him or reject him. We must have free will once we're saved, or else we would no longer do anything evil.

If He did anything but glorify Himself, He would be committing the sin of idolatry, which, obviously, is not possible for God. He does all things to glorify His own name and make His fame known in all the earth, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Nothing morally wrong, it just paints a picture of "God" as a little kid playing with his toys and making them all tell him how great he is.

Now... since I have now gone back and addressed one of your previous arguments, would you mind going back and addressing my rebuttal of your idea that God chooses everyone or that He draws everyone?

Hmmm, well you mentioned the verses talking about "elect". This is a difficult subject for me to address, because I'm really not entirely sure what the Bible means at all when it uses that word. I know God has specific plans for certain people to do things on a large scale for him EX. Moses, Abraham, David, etc. but I'm not sure how specific it can mean. I suppose that'll have to be my Bible study topic tomorrow morning for devotions. Your argument is an interesting one, but unless the term "elect" can be properly defined in it's Biblical sense, it doesn't really end up meaning much of anything other than God has chosen some people. We know from other verses in the Bible, though, that this plan is not always fulfilled in the people he chooses, as there are plenty of recorded instances of people rejecting his plan.

I'm uncertain as to what elect means, but I can back up the idea that God draws everyone to himself, not just his "elect".

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself"

If God draws everyone, and that's all it takes to be saved, then we should all be going to heaven then.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

If God's will is infallible, none would perish as that is not his will.

*Ehem*
Sorry for being so bothersome in consistently trying so hard to point out fallacy in everything you say. We can stop this debate at any point you feel like it's eating up too much of your studying time. If you're still down though, I'm very interested in understanding better how you've come to your conclusions on these things, and why I haven't come to the same conclusions considering we both have the same source materiel.

[Striped Leopard]

Sorry for being so bothersome in consistently trying so hard to point out fallacy in everything you say. We can stop this debate at any point you feel like it's eating up too much of your studying time. If you're still down though, I'm very interested in understanding better how you've come to your conclusions on these things, and why I haven't come to the same conclusions considering we both have the same source materiel.

No, it’s perfectly fine. I expect it. You and I seem to have two totally different worldviews, and I understand your point of view, because it was once my own. Now, when I had the Arminian point of view, I was a little too young to carry it out to all of its logical conclusions, but I still have had many of the same questions you have presented, at some time in the past. So I don’t mind hearing what you think about every single thing I say and then telling you what I think about what you think about every single thing I say. Keep it up!

I was just letting you know that I don't want them to be viewed as simply "my beliefs,"

But see, that's all they really are. At least, they're only what you (and other like minded people) determine to be true according to the verses that you want to focus on. We only have what the Bible teaches. It's just difficult because so many people interpret these truths differently. We're both reading the same Bible, but seeing two completely different things. Therein lies the problem...

But that’s not really all they are. None of these things that I’m telling you are things I’ve thought of on my own. All of my arguments come from sermons I’ve heard from my pastor or from other great Calvinistic preachers of our day like John Macarthur, John Piper, Al Mohler, R.C. Sproul, Paul Washer, RW Glenn, Kevin DeYoung, and others. I want to give credit where credit is due, so I’m just making sure you don’t think that all of these things are coming out of my own mind and how I interpret Scripture.

If this is what you take out of these verses, I suppose that's fine... It just doesn't seem to correspond very well with the verses you've posted above. I'm not one to say that I'm a better interpreter of scripture than you, I simply can't see how you're drawing the conclusions you are from these verse. You've attempted to explain them, but the arguments used are less than convincing.

I don’t just take that out of the verses. It’s not just my interpretation. That’s what they say. You can’t read Romans 3, which says, “There is no one who does good, no not one” and say, “Well, what he really means is that we do mostly bad, but there’s some good that comes out of us sometimes.” You just can’t get that out of the text! There is no other way to interpret these texts! How would you answer these questions:

1. If, according to Genesis 8:21, every imagination of man’s heart is evil from childhood, how can he ever do anything good?

2. If, according to Ecclesiastes 9:3, men’s hearts are full of evil, how can they have any good in them?

3. If, according to Jeremiah 17:9, the heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above all things, sick with sin, how could it possibly perform anything truly good?

4. If, according to Ecclesiastes 7:20, there is not one just man on earth who does good, without sinning, how can you say that men ever perform true good? Did Solomon just not know that Ghandi and Mother Teresa would come along, so he wrote without knowing that there were humans who had the potential to do good?

5. If, according to Isaiah 64:6-7, all of our “righteous deeds” are as filthy as menstrual pads, disgusting in the sight of God, how can you say that those deeds could possibly have any merit?

6. If, according to Isaiah 9:17, everyone is an evildoer, how can there be those who are “good-doers”?

7. If, according to Jeremiah 18:12, everyone obeys the dictates of his evil heart, how can we do any good, since we always act according to this evil heart?

I really don’t see how you can say that I’m drawing weird conclusions from these texts. They all speak directly to the issue. Our wills are in bondage, and there is nothing we could ever do to get ourselves out of this bondage.

Exactly, a man cannot change his NATURE on his own, and as a result of that, he cannot "do good" in the sense that he cannot "be holy".

No, it doesn’t say, “How can you who have a sin nature change your nature?” It says, “How can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.” The issue is not whether we can change our nature. It is whether we can act against our nature. And the answer, according to this verse, is no.

It's quite obvious (to me at least) that he's not using this expression to say that man is physically incapable to do ANYTHING good whatsoever without the assistance of God, because there are plenty of people out there like Ghandi, Bill Gates and Obama who used what they had do good in the world. (Ok, I'm kidding about the Obama part, haha. I was just seeing if I could get you to scream and pull your hair for a minute before you decided to read the rest). Christianity isn't the only religion that is based on a doctrine of peace, so how can you say that it's physically impossible for man to do ANY good whatsoever without God working through him. Does God work through people he hasn't chosen to join him in heaven as well according to Calvinism?

I addressed this briefly above, and I believe I also addressed it in a previous post, but I will flesh it out again. Yes, I am saying, and I take the Bible at its word when it says that no one does any good....at all....no, not one. If a “good” deed is at all stained by impure motives, impure intentions, or an impure attitude, it is no longer a good deed. For the very reason that all of man’s works come out of a totally corrupt and wicked heart, he can do no good. All of his works are infected with that wickedness and perversity. Ghandi, for example, being a Hindu, was performing his peaceful and righteous-seeming works in order to balance karma, to earn a better place in the world when he was reincarnated. Now, obviously, that’s not what he gained for himself. He was an idolater, and he now (unless he repented and trusted in Jesus before his death) is burning in Hell for all of his “righteousness,” which God saw as filthy rags.

Now, that is not to discount your second point, which was that God does still use people who will never be saved. He uses unbelievers, just as much as he uses believers, to carry out His perfect will and accomplish His purposes. In the situation with Pharaoh, God explicitly stated that what He did in hardening his heart, He did that He might make His Name great, that His fame might spread throughout the world, as the Israelites told of the great God who delivered them from slavery. Pharaoh was God’s instrument to bring God glory. Pharaoh did nothing good in the process. God worked through him. God even worked through his sin of rejection and unbelief. All things, even the worst of sins, God works together for the good of His children, and thus for the glory of His Name.

So what does this mean practically? Does man have any choice at any time in his life? If so, what sorts of choices is he allowed to make? Just normalish daily life kinda stuff, like what to eat for breakfast, but his will is immidiately turned off when it comes to making decisions about what he believes to be true? Where's the line between will and divine intervention? Does God literally preordain every physical action that happens on earth, like the female in the video I originally posted proposed? I have a hard time with this question too, but I'd like to know what Calvinists think about it.

In short, yes. God ordains every action that takes place. His perfect will, His secret will, cannot be thwarted. God predestined the woman’s tire to blow. Now, why He did it, we don’t know. If she was a true Christian, He did it for her ultimate good, even though she didn’t realize it at the time. I don’t think there really is a line between human will and divine intervention, other than this: God “intervenes,” if I must use that word, in everything; there is nothing out of His control. Therefore, every act of the human will is a result of predestination from God. So, humans do still act. Right now, I am typing on a keyboard. Do I feel God “making” me do it? No. But, in a sense, He is, because He ordained it to happen, and I can do nothing other than what He has already predestined I’ll do. If I stop typing, it’s not in resistance to His will, but, again, in complete harmony with it, as He already determined that I would do so. Does that make sense?

Without free will, any sort of worship means absolutely nothing.

Again, God gives us the ability to worship Him. Because, fundamentally, we are totally unable to worship Him rightly, He must give us grace to do it. So, yes, in a sense, that means that He is causing us to worship Him. Because He deserves it!! He has done everything to earn our worship, and because we cannot worship Him, He changes our hearts so that we can, and He tells us how to do it in the Bible.

What need to we have for faith if the only means we have of redemption is by being chosen as one of the elect? Why bother learning his commands if we're already made to do good by God's simple will?

We need faith because God has said that that is the only means of justification. We are justified by faith alone. But, it is through God’s grace alone that we receive that faith. Faith is not something we can have of our own power. He must grant it to us. Ephesians 2:8 says that grace and faith are His gift to us. He gives faith to all of His elect so that they can believe on Him and be saved.

We learn God’s commands because 1. He commands us to, and 2. we love Him! We are no longer in bondage! We are no longer slaves to sin! We are free from sin and slaves to God (Romans 6:22)! It is our utter joy to fulfill His commands. And we obey Him by His power. It is God Who is at work within us to will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

Why would I want to worship a God who's willfully allowing people to die for a sin nature they didn't ask for and didn't do anything to deserve? That doesn't sound like a just God to me...

See, you’re misunderstanding. The way you present that, it would be completely unjust. If God sent people to Hell who were always totally unable to serve Him, and they did not have any say in the matter, He would be unjust and not a God worthy of all praise. The thing is, we did have a say in the matter. Romans 5:12 says that we all sinned in the garden. When God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree, He gave the same command to us. When Adam transgressed the law, we transgressed the law, “and so death spread to all men because all sinned.” We had our chance to obey; we lost it. And now we are held accountable for it. God is totally just in sending unrepentant, rebellious sinners to Hell.

I don't understand this proposition at all, do we have free will, or not? Do we only obtain the choice to worship God after he calls us? In that case, it seems like God is being unfair in the matter again, giving some the ability to choose him and [censored] the rest without a second thought. The real point I'm getting at here is that I want to know if people can still choose to reject God after he draws them according to your beliefs.

Yes, we only obtain the ability to worship after God calls us, changes us, and saves us. God gives His elect the ability to choose Him, and He passes over the rest, not giving them the choice to believe on Him. The seemingly-unjust part is not that God chooses not to save some, but that He saves any! How gracious is our Lord that He would have mercy on wretches like us?

To answer your question, people cannot choose to reject God after He draws them. “No one can come to me unless the Father Who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” Everyone who is drawn and changed will, of necessity, be saved and raised up by Christ when He returns. No one can resist His call.

I believe that we can only be righteous if the Holy Spirit helps us. I do not believe that a none-believer is literally incapable of any sort of good because I've seen people who aren't Christians do good, and I've seen "Christians" to despicable things.

So was the Holy Spirit making those non-Christians do good? Was He helping them? Was Ghandi indwelt by the Holy Spirit? With regard to supposed Christians who do despicable things, wouldn’t you think that would be a reason to doubt their profession? Jesus said that you will know a tree by its fruit. If a person is repeatedly committing sin, and refusing to repent, living in a lifestyle clearly contrary to Scripture, do you really think that that person cares about the sacrifice Jesus made for them? Do you really think that someone who has come to a proper realization that their sin is what put Jesus on the cross, will continue in a lifestyle of sin, willfully adding more to the sufferings of Christ?

We're more inclined to do good once we choose to follow the way of Christ because we no longer have a sin nature. We still do sin, though, which relates back to my previous argument about the unfairness of God choosing only certain "elect" to have a free will to choose him or reject him. We must have free will once we're saved, or else we would no longer do anything evil.

We do have a liberated will when we are saved. We are able to choose good, by the power of the Holy Spirit living inside of us. But because we still battle against the flesh (Romans 7), we still sin and fall short of God’s commandments. But a true Christian will repent, sorry for his sin, and will strive all the more adamantly to follow Jesus with his whole heart.

If He did anything but glorify Himself, He would be committing the sin of idolatry, which, obviously, is not possible for God. He does all things to glorify His own name and make His fame known in all the earth, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Nothing morally wrong, it just paints a picture of "God" as a little kid playing with his toys and making them all tell him how great he is.

Why is that a bad picture? God has rights over His creation. And He has saved us! How could it ever be inferior for Him to require praise from us? He alone is lovely; He alone is worthy of our worship. Of course He has the right to “make us all tell Him how great He is.” He is great! He is the greatest! Do you have a problem with having Him make you tell Him that?

Hmmm, well you mentioned the verses talking about "elect". This is a difficult subject for me to address, because I'm really not entirely sure what the Bible means at all when it uses that word. I know God has specific plans for certain people to do things on a large scale for him EX. Moses, Abraham, David, etc. but I'm not sure how specific it can mean. I suppose that'll have to be my Bible study topic tomorrow morning for devotions. Your argument is an interesting one, but unless the term "elect" can be properly defined in it's Biblical sense, it doesn't really end up meaning much of anything other than God has chosen some people. We know from other verses in the Bible, though, that this plan is not always fulfilled in the people he chooses, as there are plenty of recorded instances of people rejecting his plan.

Here are some Biblical definitions of the word “elect”:

1. In 1 Peter 1:2, the elect are “those chosen according to the foreknowledge of God.”
2. In Romans 9:11, the elect are those God chose unconditionally, they “not being born, not having done good or evil.”
3. In Colossians 3:12, the elect are “holy and beloved.”
4. In 2 Timothy 2:10, the elect are those who “obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”

That’s the Biblical definition of “elect;” there are no people part of the elect who will not spend eternity with God. They are His holy ones, His beloved who have obtained salvation. He chose them before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) because He loved them. Not because He saw something in them worth loving, but just because He set His eyes on us and chose us. That’s the very nature of grace: unmerited favor. He is so merciful to us, it’s hard to believe. While it would have been just for Him to send all of us to Hell, not showing mercy on any, He chose instead to save some. “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will harden whom I will harden.”

I can back up the idea that God draws everyone to himself, not just his "elect".

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself"

If God draws everyone, and that's all it takes to be saved, then we should all be going to heaven then.

Very good observation. That was a very relevant verse to choose. I personally have wondered about this verse as well. It’s one of those instances where there seems to be a contradiction in the Bible, since Jesus only a few chapters earlier said that all whom the Father draws will be saved. But since we know there are no contradictions in God’s perfect Word, there must be another way of interpreting this.

Many times in the Bible, the phrase “all men” or “all people” is used to make a distinction for Jewish people. (In fact, here, in the original Greek, it just says “all;” “I will draw all to Myself.” See, the Jews, for thousands of years, knew salvation as only for themselves, for their people. Throughout the New Testament, the Biblical writers say “all men” and “all people” to show the Jews that salvation is not only for them, but for “all people”—for Jews and Gentiles. For every tribe and language and people and nation. This is what I believe Jesus is referring to when He says He will draw all men to Himself.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

If God's will is infallible, none would perish as that is not his will.

I’ve made this distinction for you before. Because there are passages in the Bible that talk about a will of God that cannot be thwarted, and also passages that talk about a will of God that can be obeyed or disobeyed, theologians have delineated between the two wills of God. There is God’s secret, decretive will, which cannot be resisted. And there is God’s revealed, preceptive will, which He commands people to obey, but which they can resist.

In the case of 2 Peter 3:9, God’s revealed will is being referenced. It is His desire that all men repent. “God commands all men everywhere to repent.” “God wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” But they do not all come. They disobey His will. And they perish for it. They reject Him, and for that they are [censored].


Well....ahem. That was a long post. It might win the prize for the longest response I’ve ever given in an online debate. Congratulations! You got quite the reaction out of me. It took a lot of time, but it was worth getting all of that out there. Thanks for taking the time to read it. I look forward to seeing your response.

[Aaron Wiley]

Thanks for taking the time to reply! I'll try to keep my answers short and to the point, and skip over any arguments that aren't as relevant so we can condense this a little bit.

Now, when I had the Arminian point of view, I was a little too young to carry it out to all of its logical conclusions

Hmmm, so what are these "logical conclusions"?

I don’t just take that out of the verses. It’s not just my interpretation. That’s what they say.

That's a little bit of a bold statement, don't you think? Declaring that no matter what, the way you interpret something is exactly what it means, no matter what anyone else thinks. I guess I can understand you, because I feel the exact same way about my point of view, haha.

How would you answer these questions:

Like this.

1. If, according to Genesis 8:21, every imagination of man’s heart is evil from childhood, how can he ever do anything good?

You've never known anyone who's an unbeliever to do anything in their entire life to do even one single unselfish thing? All this verse says is that man has a sin nature. Simple point, we both agree on sin nature, so I'll move on.

2. If, according to Ecclesiastes 9:3, men’s hearts are full of evil, how can they have any good in them?

Sin nature, yet again.

3. If, according to Jeremiah 17:9, the heart is desperately wicked, deceitful above all things, sick with sin, how could it possibly perform anything truly good?

Hyperbole this time, but still making the same point.

4. If, according to Ecclesiastes 7:20, there is not one just man on earth who does good, without sinning, how can you say that men ever perform true good?

"Does good without sinning"? Did I try to argue that unbelievers were actually capable of living a holy life with no sin whatsoever? How silly of me, what I likely meant to say is that an unbeliever still has the ability to make decisions, and thus, do some good in his life. The only thing this verse says is that there is no man that can do good without ever sinning.

5. If, according to Isaiah 64:6-7, all of our “righteous deeds” are as filthy as menstrual pads, disgusting in the sight of God, how can you say that those deeds could possibly have any merit?

"Our righteous deeds", so we CAN choose to do something right before we're saved! Of course, even the good things we do won't get us into heaven. It's by faith that we're saved, not works.

6. If, according to Isaiah 9:17, everyone is an evildoer, how can there be those who are “good-doers”?

Let's think about it this way, if you're a Christian, you must be a "do gooder" correct? By Calvinisms terms, you should never EVER make a mistake again, because that would go against this argument you're making about people not being able to commit both good and bad deeds. I'll leave the conclusion of this argument up to you. If you never ever sin again in your life, you win this argument and I'll become a Calvinist. The only thing this verse says is that everyone is an evil doer. Sounds pretty similar to the stack of verses above it saying the same thing, eh?

(I've omitted responding to the next bit of conversation, as it's just more on this same point. The most logical conclusion to the conversation that I can see it this: Man can make choices and do good, but if that good is stained by evil, he's still unholy and unable to be in communion with God.)

In short, yes. God ordains every action that takes place. ...God “intervenes,” if I must use that word, in everything; there is nothing out of His control. Therefore, every act of the human will is a result of predestination from God.

Let's pay attention to this statement just made, as it has some conflict with what you say a bit later.

...there are passages in the Bible that talk about a will of God that cannot be thwarted, and also passages that talk about a will of God that can be obeyed or disobeyed, theologians have delineated between the two wills of God. There is God’s secret, decretive will, which cannot be resisted. And there is God’s revealed, preceptive will, which He commands people to obey, but which they can resist.

Then God must be a pretty confused guy, huh? If he preordains everything happens, he must be a real psycho to be constantly working against himself with two separate wills. it seems kind of silly to me that God would have one plan, but make people work against that plan, just for the heck of it. Why would God do this? Is he confused? No, he just allows for more variables that what he decides on his own.

Anyway, I guess I should also point out that if you believe that there is a will of God that can be worked against "revealed will" or what ever you'd like to call it, that must imply that man has the ability to make decisions contrary to what God ordains, unless of course you want to fall back onto my previous paragraph and explain how God can be so confused and fickle to be changing his mind all the time. These are your only options, as I can see.

He has done everything to earn our worship

Why would he need to earn our worship if he controls us anyway?

...because we cannot worship Him, He changes our hearts so that we can, and He tells us how to do it in the Bible.

Why does he need to tell us anything in the Bible if he can just make us do it instead? If we're going with the little kid playing with his toys picture, why don't we think about it this way: did you ever write out instructions for your little action figures when you were little so they knew how to do what you wanted them to do? No. Why would you? That would be pointless.

We are justified by faith alone. But, it is through God’s grace alone that we receive that faith. Faith is not something we can have of our own power. He must grant it to us. Ephesians 2:8 says that grace and faith are His gift to us. He gives faith to all of His elect so that they can believe on Him and be saved.

According to this picture, God's grace isn't a gift at all, it's almost a sort of punishment. I don't want to have faith unless I choose to have faith. If I don't choose it, it's not mine. The choice is the only thing that gives salvation any meaning. Without it, God isn't really getting any true praise, as it is all forced praise, and not from the heart.

If God sent people to Hell who were always totally unable to serve Him, and they did not have any say in the matter, He would be unjust and not a God worthy of all praise.

So, the God of Calvinism is unjust and unworthy of any praise...

The thing is, we did have a say in the matter. Romans 5:12 says that we all sinned in the garden.

It doesn't say that, it just says that sin entered the world through Adam. We all obtained our sin nature from his mistake. We didn't all sin in the garden! The entirety of the worlds current population didn't EXIST when we were still in the garden.

When God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree, He gave the same command to us. When Adam transgressed the law, we transgressed the law.

This is not scriptural. We are not "one with Adam" as we are "one with Christ". Adam did what Adam did, I'll do what I do. We're not the same person.

To answer your question, people cannot choose to reject God after He draws them. “No one can come to me unless the Father Who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” Everyone who is drawn and changed will, of necessity, be saved and raised up by Christ when He returns. No one can resist His call.

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

God called Israel. They rejected him.

With regard to supposed Christians who do despicable things, wouldn't you think that would be a reason to doubt their profession? Jesus said that you will know a tree by its fruit.

Have you sinned since you're conversion? Hopefully not. If so, you must not really be a Christian, and are not one of the elect. If you were, you would only produce good fruit occording to this argument. Does that sit well with you?

We do have a liberated will when we are saved. We are able to choose good, by the power of the Holy Spirit living inside of us. But because we still battle against the flesh (Romans 7), we still sin and fall short of God’s commandments. But a true Christian will repent, sorry for his sin, and will strive all the more adamantly to follow Jesus with his whole heart.

You seem to have answered the arguments I posted above quite well already here. So again we arrive at the conclusion that God only gives some people the ability to choose to obey or disobey him. That's unjust.

Do you have a problem with having Him make you tell Him that?

(This paragraph is rated PG 13+)

To be frank, very much so. If I can't choose to worship him, my worship means nothing. If there's no alternative to love, then it is not love at all, as I've been trying to tell you from the beginning. If Calvinism is valid, none of us truly love God, the only one that loves God is God. Kinda sucks for God eh? He doesn't ever get to experience real love? He shoulda' saw that one coming when he was creating everything so he could remedy it before he made some race of puppets that can't express any sort of emotion other than what he commands. I'd like to you think back to my analogy of the difference between a wife, and a sex slave. If none of us can choose God, then we're all nothing but prostitutes pleasuring God because we have nothing else we can do.

"2 Timothy 2:10, Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory."

I'm responding specifically to this verse, because it's the only one you provided that means much of anything. The other verses didn't say much other than "elect" means "chosen".

I understand that God has chosen people, but I still don't know exactly what the extent of that "choosing" really means, because as I've already pointed out in scripture, we can break the will of God. You responded to that with an argument about God having two separate wills (which already doesn't make any sense), but if we're going to go with the idea that he does, this "election" must be one of the things that falls in the category of his "revealed will". Israel is probably one of the easiest and largest example to turn to. Think about it, a whole nation rejecting Christ? Millions of God's "elect" who slapped God right in the face, choosing to follow their traditions instead.

Many times in the Bible, the phrase “all men” or “all people” is used to make a distinction for Jewish people. (In fact, here, in the original Greek, it just says “all;” “I will draw all to Myself.” See, the Jews, for thousands of years, knew salvation as only for themselves, for their people. Throughout the New Testament, the Biblical writers say “all men” and “all people” to show the Jews that salvation is not only for them, but for “all people”—for Jews and Gentiles. For every tribe and language and people and nation. This is what I believe Jesus is referring to when He says He will draw all men to Himself.

Different interpretation, different meaning. I can't make a strong argument here to say that it should be interpreted the way it's read in the same way that you can't make a strong argument when it comes to the verses about sin nature, so I won't attempt to. The Bible has no contradictions, but it does have some passages that are harder to understand, and that's something I can clearly see we're both struggling with.

Anywho, sorry if I was overly crass at points in that. There's a possibility that I could have worded things more respectfully to your beliefs at times, and I hope you'll forgive me for that. If I edited out too much, feel free to bring back any point you want from any of your previous posts that you'd like me to address.

[ArnoldtheRubberDucky]

I believe I agree with Aaron, but I'm NOT getting involved, as my arguments would seem so flimsy and you guys would beat me so badly I might break down and cry.

[Striped Leopard]

Okay... This time I think I must really and truly concede the debate to you. I had gotten a little ahead in my Bible Bee studies last week, so I had more time to devote to this. But my last response took over a half hour to put together, and as the National Bible Bee draws ever nearer, and as I continue to have school every day, I think I really have to stop the debate here. Sorry I won't be able to respond to your arguments. You seem to be pretty solid in your beliefs, and I don't think I'm going to change that. Originally, it seemed like you were more on the fence about things, so I thought you might be easier to win over to Reformed theology. But it would seem you've done your research and have typical Arminian answers for everything I say, so since we aren't getting anywhere, I think we should stop. Don't think that I don't have answers though! I actually even discussed this with a friend, and I have a lot of stuff I could say to you, but as I said, I just don't have the time.

So, unless Pound Foolish decides to come in and post something totally provocative like, "God never intrudes upon the will of His creation. C'mon that's basic!" I might just lose my mind if he posts something similar to that again.

Anyways. Good debate. These things are the only chance I get to really debate and defend my beliefs, so I appreciate it. Thank you!