How do we distinguish a cult?

[Miss Friendship]

How do we distinguish a cult in today's world? What do you say to people you know, that by your definition, are in a cult? And why is Jesus different than any other great leader?

And is Catholism a cult when it seems to point to the Pope as the head and authority in all matters, while Jesus is in the background. ?

[Mr. Yorp]

Let's see.. Mormonism, CCM, Hebrew Roots, Jehovah's Witness, Catholicism, are all cults. Now breaking down the reasons they are cults takes some time...

[SirWhit]

...CCM? As in Christian Contemporary Music?

[Wakko]

Let's see.. Mormonism, CCM, Hebrew Roots, Jehovah's Witness, Catholicism, are all cults. Now breaking down the reasons they are cults takes some time...

...
I fail to see how any of these could be considered a cult.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Cult can have several different meanings, it can mean a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. Or it can mean a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. Using either of those definitions I fail to see how any of those groups could be regarded as cults, unless Catholicism like the rest of Christianity is defined as devotion toward Christ, which it may very well be but I doubt that's what Yorp is implying.

Now Mr. Yorp and Miss Friendship please stop referring to Catholicism as a cult, it's not very nice and you've been warned about this before. That is not what the Roman Catholic church does with the pope and you know it as I have personally explained it to you both. I do not agree with the doctrine of the pope but we need to debate the actual doctrines not create strawman doctrines.

[TigerShadow]

Wait a minute—CCM is a cult? I'm assuming you're referring to contemporary Christian music, which is what CCM stands for in most Christian circles? How is that a cult?

At any rate, here is the dictionary definition of the word "cult":

cult, n. a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs and practices regarded by others as strange or sinister; a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing: a cult of personality.

cult noun, often attributive. a small religious group that is not part of a larger and more accepted religion and that has beliefs regarded by many people as extreme or dangerous

a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

With those in mind, I think we can rule out Catholicism, for several reasons. For one thing, there are roughly a billion Catholics globally; that isn't really that small, even relatively speaking. For another, not all Catholics follow everything the Vatican declares or has declared to be true, and they aren't under a watchful eye that will make their lives miserable if they don't; like within most denominations and sects of Christianity, you won't find that all Catholics agree on everything. For another, most people don't consider Catholicism to be dangerous, just different from what they believe—and I'm including Christians, because by and large when other Christians criticize Catholicism, it's not from a standpoint that condemns them as a non-Christian cult. Catholics aren't really that extreme, either; most practicing Catholics live lifestyles that really aren't that different from any other Christian. They also don't all venerate the Pope above Jesus; having a centralized authority on matters of faith does not equate to worshipping the Pope.

As far as recognizing a cult is concerned, I tend to consider a cult as groups that have a slavish devotion to a particular person or thing, and usually they don't look at it with any level of critical thinking. Dissention is not remotely tolerated, but no one ever thinks to dissent because they aren't allowed to think. The leader usually exerts an unhealthy level of control over the followers, who do whatever they are told without question; in one infamous and tragic example, a man named Jim Jones led a cult and convinced his followers to drink poisoned Kool-Aid and commit mass suicide (this is where the idea of "drinking the Kool-Aid" comes from—clinging to a particular person or ideology without question).

[Mr. Yorp]

So maybe we should call them false gospels instead.

Would you say that Doug Phillips church was a cult?

[Eleventh Doctor]

If false gospel is a term for Christian groups you disagree with theologically sure, otherwise no.

That's a good question, I would say no since the church he founded excommunicated him so they don't appear to have a slavish devotion to him.

[Ashley]

Doug Philips, as in the founder of Vision Forum?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, that Doug Philips

[TigerShadow]

If false gospel is a term for Christian groups you disagree with theologically sure, otherwise no.

To be fair, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are not considered to be Christian denominations by many churches; if I'm remembering the basics correctly, Mormons deny the Trinity and Jehovah's Witnesses deny the divinity of Jesus. There are also some reports from former Jehovah's Witnesses that dissent is not tolerated and that they were abused when they tried, which reeks of cultish behavior to me.

[Ashley]

And they excommunicated him? Like, he's Catholic?

I think that the Mormons from 100+ years ago were very cultish. If Arthur Conan Doyle got it right, they would live in separate villages by themselves and torture anyone who wanted to leave the faith. But the Mormons now? Well, I don't think that The Piano Guys would do those kinds of things, do you?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Tiger, you are correct about the beliefs of those groups, but I would say they are too big and accepted in society to be cults though. But as you say Jehovah's Witnesses can have cultish behaviors, all though I've been in non-denominational Protestant churches where dissent wasn't tolerated and people were kicked out for disagreeing with the pastor or elders.

Excommunication is simply a fancy term for denying communion and/or fellowship to an individual. It is not a uniquely Catholic thing.

If Arthur Conan Doyle's fictional book is to be believed yes. But it is true that Mormons have evolved from a cult to a religion over the past hundred years, whether or not Doyle's fictional accounts are accurate or not. I don't think the Piano Guys would do that either, nor Lindsey Stirling.

[Miss Friendship]

Let's see.. Mormonism, CCM, Hebrew Roots, Jehovah's Witness, Catholicism, are all cults. Now breaking down the reasons they are cults takes some time...

...
I fail to see how any of these could be considered a cult.

My definition of a cult would be ny religion that gives authority to a leader other than Jesus. For example, the JW's give authority to the Watchtower. The Muslims to their Prophet...and so on.

CCM? Ummm...how is that a cult?

Fine, I'll drop the Catholism questions, but I still wonder at times... If the Pope followed Jesus's commandments I would be convinced however

[TigerShadow]

Tiger, you are correct about the beliefs of those groups, but I would say they are too big and accepted in society to be cults though. But as you say Jehovah's Witnesses can have cultish behaviors, all though I've been in non-denominational Protestant churches where dissent wasn't tolerated and people were kicked out for disagreeing with the pastor or elders.

Certainly. I should have been clearer—I was referring to those groups being false gospels, which was what you were replying to Mr. Yorp about. Not specifying and then referring to cultish behavior in the same paragraph sort of muddied that; sorry about that.

@Miss Friendship, because I can't copy and paste your first paragraph: That isn't the definition of a cult. A cult and a false religion aren't the same thing; rather, a cult is a specific subset of false religion. One can follow a false religion without following a cult.

And who says the Pope doesn't follow Jesus's commands?

[Miss Friendship]

As I stated, it's my definition of a cult. So, I wouldn't consider it to be a universal definition. But I do see a difference between large cults (false religions) and small ones that last for only so long.

Who says? I am sure many people who protest the Catholics would say the same. I acually am not protesting them...just comparing some of the Popes from the past to what Jesus taught--and sometimes it seems they went exactly opposite. Thats why i am a little doubtful of a Church being under the control of one man. Suppose he makes a doctrinal error? He would lead millions astray. (Note: I am not judging anyone who who is Catholic, or saying they are following a false religion)

[Wakko]

But that's not what others consider to be a cult, you have to have a definition that everyone agrees on in order to have a debate that makes any sense.

[Miss Friendship]

Why would my definition not make any sense? I actually heard it from a minister. Anyone who gives authority to a leader other than Jesus is a cult--or false religion. Jesus proved that He was the only way by rising from the dead. No other great leader from history ever rose from the dead. Thus, Jesus is the only one that gave us evidence for what we believe, and He is the yardstick which we use to measure all other so called religions.

[SirWhit]

Tiger, you are correct about the beliefs of those groups, but I would say they are too big and accepted in society to be cults though. But as you say Jehovah's Witnesses can have cultish behaviors, all though I've been in non-denominational Protestant churches where dissent wasn't tolerated and people were kicked out for disagreeing with the pastor or elders.

Just want to share my thoughts on this. I think there is room for disagreement in some things, for instance, vegetarian or not vegetarian, or what kinds of music is acceptable to listen to, and being kicked out for something like that is definitely inappopriate. But if someone is going around saying that Jesus is not the Son of God, or that the Trinity does not exist, than I think that the church needs to be involved, either in keeping that person from teaching, or studying with them to show their error, or even kicking them out if they refuse to stop.

[Eleventh Doctor]

My definition of a cult would be any religion that gives authority to a leader other than Jesus.

Can you clarify what you mean by gives authority? Do you mean any authority at all? Because I assume you have a leader at your church who is in charge or logistical issues like printouts and chairs etc. Also you've mentioned that different elders get to choose what hymns or passages to read, that's authority why is that okay? Or are you talking about a specific type of authority?

Miss Friendship, this is like our atheism discussion. Your definition of cult is too broad to be of any use. According to your definition everything not Christian is a cult, that's not useful in discussions. Cult is a subset of false religions, so it needs to have an exact definition.

I agree with you Mr. Whit's End

Edit: On the Catholic issue, the pope could not get up tomorrow and say something like stealing is okay or you can worship idols now and have it be accepted. While I disagree with the doctrine of having a pope we need to disagree with an accurate representation of the opposing viewpoint. The pope does not have complete and total control over Catholic doctrines and teachings, what he says has to agree with Catholic Traditions.