The Rapture..

[SirWhit]

My definition of elect is those who have accepted God as their Lord and Savior.

[Wodfamchocsod]

See my post right above you, eleventh Doc

-- Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:29 pm --

My definition of elect is those who have accepted God as their Lord and Savior.

You're right on, mr whit's end. With the rapture, tribulation, and second coming.
What do you think of the tribulation, Eleventh Doc?

[SirWhit]

OK...I'm kind of confused at the moment. I think this is one of those things where I assume you mean secret rapture, when you really mean Second Coming.

[Wodfamchocsod]

Second coming and rapture are the same thing.

[SirWhit]

Yeah. I know that. But I was saying that I assumed your saying rapture to mean secret rapture. Nothing to see here, just me assuming things.

That reminds me of an AIO episode...

[Eleventh Doctor]

I don't really have an opinion on the Tribulation.

You mean you'll trust your interpretation of the Bible.

True, they didn't have many printers in the 1800s, do you think lack of printers means no writings? How do you think the Bible got written?

[SirWhit]

Umm....do you not believe the Bible for what it says? Why would we want writings after the New Testament when we have GODS WORD??
Also, it is extremely plain. (1 Thessalonians 4:17). After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
I don't need other writings to prove this. I believe in Gods word.

I do believe what the Bible says, I just disagree with your interpretation. If it really was as plain as you claim then others would have written agreeing with your interpretation. Providing sources other than yourself is pretty standard in discussions. Otherwise the discussion doesn't go anywhere because I could just say "I don't need other writings to prove the rapture won't happen. I believe in God's word." There we go, just as credible and convincing as your argument.

Just out of curiosity, what are your beliefs on eschatology?

[Eleventh Doctor]

My views: The Rapture is not a thing and God wins in the end. P.S. No 1,000 year kingdom

[Wodfamchocsod]

Umm....do you not believe the Bible for what it says? Why would we want writings after the New Testament when we have GODS WORD??
Also, it is extremely plain. (1 Thessalonians 4:17). After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
I don't need other writings to prove this. I believe in Gods word.

I do believe what the Bible says, I just disagree with your interpretation. If it really was as plain as you claim then others would have written agreeing with your interpretation. Providing sources other than yourself is pretty standard in discussions. Otherwise the discussion doesn't go anywhere because I could just say "I don't need other writings to prove the rapture won't happen. I believe in God's word." There we go, just as credible and convincing as your argument.

Just out of curiosity, what are your beliefs on eschatology?

What is eschatology?
Eleventh Doctor, why don't you believe in the millennium?

[TigerShadow]

Eschatology is, essentially, what you believe about the end times and how you interpret books of prophecy, such as Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation.

[Wodfamchocsod]

Eleventh Doctor,
The word rapture may not have been said before the 1900s, but the concept remains. After 1 Thessalonains was written, there was the Dark Ages, so not much "light" (if you will). There are a few old hymns of the faith, such as Lo! He comes with clouds descending in the 1700s. But, again, if you read the Bible, that's what I believe.
My views on eschatology? I believe that Christ will come for His church. Then, the anti Christ will arise and sign a treaty with Israel, signaling the start of the 7 year tribulation. Afterwards, Christ comes back and we Believers will reign with Him a thousand years. Afterwards, justice will be served, if you will.
I have a question for you, eleventh doctor. In Revelation 20:6 it states we will reign with Christ a thousand years. Are you denying God's Word?
And why don't you have an "opinion" on the Tribulation? Do you or do you not believe in it? If not, read Revelation.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So Christianity languished for about 1,600 years after the New Testament was written and didn't write much of worth until the 1700s?

I'm not denying God's Word I'm saying a thousand years is figurative, a literal thousand year kingdom was denounced as the heresy of chiliasm by the Nicene Creed. The Kingdom of God shall have no end.

I don't think it matters, I have read Revelation and I don't think it's even clear that Revelation is talking about future events.

[Wodfamchocsod]

So Christianity languished for about 1,600 years after the New Testament was written and didn't write much of worth until the 1700s?

I'm not denying God's Word I'm saying a thousand years is figurative, a literal thousand year kingdom was denounced as the heresy of chiliasm by the Nicene Creed. The Kingdom of God shall have no end.

I don't think it matters, I have read Revelation and I don't think it's even clear that Revelation is talking about future events.

No, it didn't. During the Dark Ages there simply wasn't much of any sort of Christianity going on, as you know.

I take the Bible literally because it's Gods Word, and it should be. Why else would it be given to us?

I will pray for you in light of Revelation, then. I think you'll have a mighty big surprise one day when we meet Christ in the clouds.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Actually I don't know that, the Byzantine Empire for example was a golden age of Christian writing. Look up the Seven Ecumenical Councils, they took place during the so called Dark Age and are towering examples of Christian theological development. Do you really think that there were no major Christian writings before the Reformation?

So the entire Bible is to be taken literally? Every part of it?

I'd prefer you not pray for me in that way actually, we can discuss this issue but please don't use prayer like this. I think you might have a surprise when it doesn't happen that way.

[Wodfamchocsod]

Actually I don't know that, the Byzantine Empire for example was a golden age of Christian writing. Look up the Seven Ecumenical Councils, they took place during the so called Dark Age and are towering examples of Christian theological development. Do you really think that there were no major Christian writings before the Reformation?

So the entire Bible is to be taken literally? Every part of it?

I'd prefer you not pray for me in that way actually, we can discuss this issue but please don't use prayer like this. I think you might have a surprise when it doesn't happen that way.

So what? The Bible is way more important than documents! And even if people didn't write about it, they still might have believed it! And even if they didn't, that doesn't and shouldn't change my beliefs.
Yes, the Bible is Gods word. Seriously. I'm thinking we should probably take what God says literally.
Ok, I won't pray that way if you don't want me to. I guess we will see who's right one day.

[TigerShadow]

So you literally believe that the antichrist is going to rise from out of the sea and look like a beast with a leopard's head, a lion's mouth, and bear's feet, or that the false prophet is going to have lamb's horns and speak like a dragon?

[Eleventh Doctor]

It's highly unlikely that if any number of people believed something that it would have gone unwritten. And it is important to study what was written back then, the writers were closer to the times of Christ, the Apostles, and those to whom the Bible was written to directly.

Also as I've said before, if this really is such an obvious thing then it would only make sense that people had written about it before. There are writings from the first few centuries of the Church on every subject in the Bible, despite your belief, the church did not suffer a dark age where nothing of importance was written. In fact these first few centuries of the Church produced some of the most important writings on key doctrines such as the Trinity and the nature of Christ's Incarnation. It would be highly unusual if something that is so obvious wasn't written about, I'm not saying it should change your belief or that they are more important than the Bible but it should give you pause and maybe realize this isn't so obvious.

[Blitz]

Second coming and rapture are the same thing.

*Chokes*
This is not at all true. The second coming is at the end of the Tribulation. The Rapture is before. Jesus does not set foot on the ground during the rapture.

Tiger the Bible make it pretty obvious at that time It is using metaphors.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Really? How does it make it obvious?

So because Jesus doesn't set foot on the ground it doesn't count as the second coming?

[FlyingRider]

So ( not that it matters) i believe that there will be a tribulation and a rapture. I believe that we will go through trials and the world is going to get pretty bad before God takes us out. But i also believe that after be are taken its going to get alot worse.