My church, your church, our church.

[aragtaghooligan]

I have been thinking a lot about Christian denominations lately. Partly because we seem to talk a lot about it here and in debates on the ToO chat room. This makes sense. It is important to talk about this stuff because disagreement can help us understand each other and ourselves much better, however sometimes these conversations can get heated and we can focus on the negatives a little too much. This actually came up a couple of days ago on the chat.

Then there was the Out of the Woods episode of AIO released on the OAC. I won't spoil it for you, but it made me think about this topic from a different perspective. I was home schooled for elementary school. One of the main reasons my mom home schooled us was so we could learn in our own way. There are different learning styles like Kinetic (learn through moving so doing fun activities or even being allowed to move while doing traditional learning activities like going for a walk while answering math questions), visual (learning by reading or looking at maps or other diagrams and taking written tests), and auditory (listening to lectures, having conversations, or answering questions out loud). I understand that different denominations have different theology and that some people have strong convictions about everything even how we should praise God, and I respect that, but I can't help but feel that maybe different people need to worship God in different ways or hear sermons in a different way because they are a unique kind of person with a unique brain that learns and understands and relates to God in a unique way.

I still want to see us discuss things like baptism, communion, worship, and our unique perspectives of the details of atonement, but I also want to see more unity for those of us who believe that God created the world, sent His only son to be fully human while remaining fully God and to die out of love for us, and that we have the Holy Spirit as our helper. In the spirit of unity I was hoping we could all share something about our church that we see as being especially beautiful or helpful to us. I don't want this to be a debate about which type of church is more true or more good, but a place to share things we find beautiful about our churches.

I'll start. I have been to a lot of different types of churches, youth groups, campus groups, and bible studies, but my favourite thing is when I meet in someone's home with a small group of others to discuss the bible, pray, or sing. This may happen for any number of reason: a special prayer or worship meeting, a weekly bible study separate from church, a weekly small group through a church, or even a weekly home church. Whatever the specifics, I love meeting in homes with other believers. Even in university I had a lot of trouble focusing on a lecture, but when we met for seminars (small group discussions after the lecture) I found I learned much more because I could participate. For me, knowing I will be able to talk too helps me listen to what is being said to me and I like being able to ask questions if I'm confused where you can't ask questions in the middle of a sermon.

In a religious setting, I also love home gatherings because there is something deeply beautiful and symbolic about gathering together in a home as if we really are all the family of Christ. I love when we have potlucks because it is like a family sharing food and eating together understanding that we are all different but still unified and talking to share each other's burdens and see how we can help one another. I'm not saying that small groups should replace church completely just that I need a church with a small group element because just as an artist may find they see God in a stained glass window or hear him in a song more than they can glimpse Him through a sermon because of how their brain works, I see God most clearly in a small group settings.

[DredgeAmazing]

Spoil me? Please do.

Anyway, there are a ton of denoms that teach falacy, but I kinda get where you're coming from. Why not simply obey the Words in Red instead of complicating things?

[aragtaghooligan]

If you want to be spoiled we talked about it in the episodes branch of the forum. Your red letter comments while a valid opinion had nothing to do with everything I said.

[Woody]

Spoil me? Please do.

Anyway, there are a ton of denoms that teach falacy, but I kinda get where you're coming from. Why not simply obey the Words in Red instead of complicating things?

Because everyone has a different interpretation of the "words in red". Therefore, each thinks they are obeying them, even though some may not think they are, because they see everything through their interpretation. But this is not a debate topic, so I'll refrain from going any further on that.

I help out in the Jr. High group of my church, and I really love the topical studies the Jr. High Pastor does on Wednesday nights. They're usually in response to questions the kids have asked, which I think is a really cool way to personalize the studies. Plus, I usually prefer topical studies to passage studies, since a single passage can have so many topics it becomes confusing.

[HomeschoolCowgirl]

In a religious setting, I also love home gatherings because there is something deeply beautiful and symbolic about gathering together in a home as if we really are all the family of Christ. I love when we have potlucks because it is like a family sharing food and eating together understanding that we are all different but still unified and talking to share each other's burdens and see how we can help one another. I'm not saying that small groups should replace church completely just that I need a church with a small group element because just as an artist may find they see God in a stained glass window or hear him in a song more than they can glimpse Him through a sermon because of how their brain works, I see God most clearly in a small group settings.

Our church does this once a month; there are several homes and people go to one, and bring food, and after lunch or supper there is a bible study about the sermon series that is currently going on. We don't go to that any more (wish we did), but when we did I liked it a lot.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I can see your point with different learning styles but I don't think it holds up. I don't see different styles of worship available in the Old Testament, there is one style. In the examples we have of worship in the NT and of worship in Heaven in Revelation we don't see multiple styles.

But something from my tradition I find especially beautiful. The thing that was most different from the traditions that I grew up in that I had trouble adjusting to at first were icons, icons are two dimensional religious art portraying Christ, scenes from His life, Mary, and the other Saints. We also use them as focuses for worship, reminding ourselves of the stories depicted in them and reminders of the reality that God and the Saints, the cloud of witnesses, are always present with us. Here are some of my favorite icons.

[aragtaghooligan]

Hmm that is an interesting point about the OT and Revelations
Why are those two of your favourite icons? (P.s. it is really annoying that my spelling of favourite keeps getting underlined red hahaha oh Canadian spelling)

[Miss Friendship]

So you believe Jesus can actually be described on a picture? Personally I don't have any paintings depicting Jesus because no picture can ever do him justice, and it since we do worship Jesus, having him on an image would be almost like worshiping that image--thus an OT form of an idol.

[Doll]

So you believe Jesus can actually be described on a picture? Personally I don't have any paintings depicting Jesus because no picture can ever do him justice, and it since we do worship Jesus, having him on an image would be almost like worshiping that image--thus an OT form of an idol.

I personally don't worship the images of Jesus, but being a visual person and a visual learner, having an image of what he looked like/could have looked like helps me worship Him. Not the pictures.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Do I believe Jesus can ever be fully described in a picture? No, I don't and we don't worship the icons. As I said they are physical reminders of the reality of Christ being everywhere present. As for the use of images in worship, the OT is full of God commanded images being used in Tabernacle and Temple worship.

These two are my favorite, the first one is a more recent icon of the Trinity by a Russian artist Andrei Rublev, painted about the time of the Reformation. It depicts the three Angels visiting Abraham, the symbolism is that they are the three members of the Trinity. The colors and even the position of how they're sitting is significant and meaningful. The second icon is of the Resurrection, this is the icon for Pascha one of my favorite feasts in the Orthodox Church, also know in the west as Easter Christ is standing on the gates of Hades, having descended into hades and defeated Satan. He has raised all the Saints of the Old Testament, harrowing Hades. The two figures He is lifting up are Adam and Eve.

[Miss Friendship]

So where in the Bible does it mention Jesus raising saints from Hades? We only have that one verse where he descended into hell. Is this picture adding a lot that isn't scriptural?

Also, what images were commanded in the OT?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Sure, this icon is adding to the fullness of the Gospel by expanding on that one verse. Because when that verse was written the churches it was being written to had already been told about the raising of the Saints from Hades.

Exodus 26:31 "You shall make a veil woven of blue, purple, and scarlet thread, and fine woven linen. It shall be woven with an artistic design of cherubim."

1 Kings 6:29 "Then he carved all the walls of the temple all around, both the inner and outer sanctuaries, with carved figures of cherubim, palm trees, and open flowers."

[TigerShadow]

So you believe Jesus can actually be described on a picture? Personally I don't have any paintings depicting Jesus because no picture can ever do him justice, and it since we do worship Jesus, having him on an image would be almost like worshiping that image--thus an OT form of an idol.

I personally don't worship the images of Jesus, but being a visual person and a visual learner, having an image of what he looked like/could have looked like helps me worship Him. Not the pictures.

Personally, I've found that some images also help contextualize what He, the Pharisees, and the disciples probably looked like—for example, computer-generated imagery remodeling what the average Jew native to Judea under Roman rule looked like. It helps to remind me that the gospels are historical narratives, not a collection of stories.

[Miss Friendship]

Mhmm, images...but not of people. Well I'll drop this point.

I think a lot of unnecessary, might-be-true-might-not doctrine has been accepted as truth, and this one of Jesus raising the saints might be one of them. This seems to be pulling an overload from that verse, but I know your church believes what it wants to regardless of scripture references.

[Eleventh Doctor]

but I know your church believes what it wants to regardless of scripture references.

I think that's a mischaracterization of my Tradition. I accept that you hold to beliefs based on your best interpretation of Scripture and with the best intentions, I would appreciate that courtesy being returned.

[Miss Friendship]

but I know your church believes what it wants to regardless of scripture references.

I think that's a mischaracterization of my Tradition. I accept that you hold to beliefs based on your best interpretation of Scripture and with the best intentions, I would appreciate that courtesy being returned.

So I am to ignore any questions I have or faults I see?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I didn't say that, please discuss any disagreements you have with my Traditions interpretation of Scripture but that's a big difference than saying we ignore Scripture or that we come up with these things regardless of Scripture.

[Miss Friendship]

True. I am saying that your Triditon seems to take one verse and build a mountain....and I am confused when no one else sees that mountain.

[aragtaghooligan]

I love (sarcasm) how some of you turned an attempt at unity into another argument with slightly unrespectful undertones...Thanks for telling me what they are of and why they are two of your favourite Eelventh! It is very interesting.

[Miss Friendship]

Is this thread really about unity?