Duggar Debate

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Eleventh Doctor
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Re: Duggar Debate

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From reading about the Duggars I'm sure Josh was spanked plenty. I also find your emoticons about a serious issue like pedophilia to be in poor taste. I was asking what you think should have been done after he sexually abused several young girls, I hardly think a spanking is sufficient.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:From reading about the Duggars I'm sure Josh was spanked plenty. I also find your emoticons about a serious issue like pedophilia to be in poor taste. I was asking what you think should have been done after he sexually abused several young girls, I hardly think a spanking is sufficient.
He clearly feels remorse. The spanking did something.
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Eanrin
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DredgeAmazing, rarely have I seen a more disgusting, disrespectful, inappropriate case of trolling. At least, I really, really hope you're trolling, because the alternative is even more horrifying. How can you possibly justify the actions of a child molester and those who covered up his behavior? I just... don't even... How. Why. :?
Last edited by Eanrin on Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TigerShadow
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Yeah, okay, we shouldn't be responding to someone who willfully ignores the things we say and prefers to do the online equivalent of covering up his ears and scatting loudly. (Eleventh, you may be the Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, but the Duchess of Logic is temporarily usurping you.)
Pound Foolish wrote:PS Tiger, there really isn't any limit on how many kids you have. You have as many or little as you're called to by God. And I just don't get your argument. Having that many and them all turning out well is a gamble so... what? Because odds are there may be a bad one among that many kids, you should have fewer to avoid the stats?
At no point in my post did I ever say that a person shouldn't have that many kids. It's any family's prerogative to have as many kids as they want (although the wife of the family might have some choice words to say about it ;) ). All I was saying was that I wasn't surprised that a family with over nineteen kids had someone who turned out poorly. (Granted, it's a more extreme "poorly", but it's poor nonetheless.)
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GabrielleFandomGirl wrote:It is not normal, Miss Friendship, the average number of children is one to three per family.
Normal for the last 100 years maybe. Oh well... my family isn't normal, who cares. But I simply can't imagine life with only my brother and one sister?? What do families do for excitement with only 2 or 3??
Um...they interact with each other on a regular basis...? I basically have an average nuclear family (mom, dad, brother, and a cat), and our house is either really chill or really boisterous, because we know how to give each other space while at the same time having a lot of fun bouncing off each other.
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Re: Duggar Debate

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Eanrin wrote:DredgeAmazing, rarely have I seen a more disgusting, disrespectful, inappropriate case of trolling. At least, I really, really hope you're trolling, because the alternative is even more horrifying. How can you possibly justify the actions of a pedophile and those who covered up his behavior? I just... don't even... How. Why. :?
Okay, I know this isn't the point of your post at all, but pedophile? You can't be a pedophile if you're a kid yourself. It's natural for males to prefer younger females, that's fairly usual. (Granted, I don't know just how young the victims were... Yulgth.)
TigerShadow wrote:At no point in my post did I ever say that a person shouldn't have that many kids. It's any family's prerogative to have as many kids as they want (although the wife of the family might have some choice words to say about it ).
Agreed entirely, sorry for my misunderstanding.
Last edited by Pound Foolish on Sat May 23, 2015 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TigerShadow
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Eanrin wrote:DredgeAmazing, rarely have I seen a more disgusting, disrespectful, inappropriate case of trolling. At least, I really, really hope you're trolling, because the alternative is even more horrifying. How can you possibly justify the actions of a pedophile and those who covered up his behavior? I just... don't even... How. Why. :?
Okay, I know this isn't the point of your post at all, but pedophile? You can't a pedophile if you're a kid yourself. It's natural for males to prefer younger females, that's fairly usual. (Granted, I don't know just how young the victims were... Yulgth.)
Yeah, "creepy child molester" I can get behind, but if he was still a minor at the time of the incidents, then legally speaking, that isn't pedophilia. It's horrific violation of other human beings, but "pedophilia" isn't the term for it.
Pound Foolish wrote:
TigerShadow wrote:At no point in my post did I ever say that a person shouldn't have that many kids. It's any family's prerogative to have as many kids as they want (although the wife of the family might have some choice words to say about it ).
Agreed entirely, sorry for my misunderstanding.
It's fine. :)
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Woody
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Dredge, first of all, can you not be a disrespectful, assuming jerk to everyone that is talking good sense? Thanks, that would help.

Secondly, I would like to make a note showing the inconsistency of your opinions.
DredgeAmazing wrote:The stupid creep who raped my friend got caught. I trusted him to improve our minds and educate us. Turns out he was teaching some of my female classmates too much.
DredgeAmazing wrote:Okay, there is so much ignorance and hate surrounding the Duggars, but they are just wonderful people! They were the only folks around who had guts enough to stand up to the Kardashians and defend God's design for gender! They are wonderful people of God, any any hate directed at them is ignorant hogwash.
This is from a post you made in the "Should the Victim Be Blamed" thread. So, let's get this straight. The guy who raped your friend is a stupid creep, and Josh, who sexually abused his sisters, is a WONDERFUL PERSON!? Please, show me how this can be viewed as even slightly logical!

And yeah, Eleventh isn't gay. And please, don't ever make assumptions about people and treat them like that again. Even if he was gay, that is likely the worst response you could possibly have, and it's responses like that that get Christians labeled as haters. If you want to be a witness for Christ, don't scream in peoples' faces about how sinful they are. Be kind and loving, and just maybe, they'll listen to you.
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Eanrin
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TigerShadow wrote:
Pound Foolish wrote:Okay, I know this isn't the point of your post at all, but pedophile? You can't a pedophile if you're a kid yourself. It's natural for males to prefer younger females, that's fairly usual. (Granted, I don't know just how young the victims were... Yulgth.)
Yeah, "creepy child molester" I can get behind, but if he was still a minor at the time of the incidents, then legally speaking, that isn't pedophilia. It's horrific violation of other human beings, but "pedophilia" isn't the term for it.
Eh, true. Poor choice of words during the time of an angry post. Unfortunately, this case is eerily similar to something that hits pretty close to home for me, and I was kind of emotional when I made that post.

Semantics aside, I really hope that people will not indulge DredgeAmazing in his trollish ways. Trying to pin any semblance of responsibility for Josh Duggar's actions on the victims (very young girls, from what I've heard) is absolutely disgusting and revolting, and anyone who says that they are responsible is clearly just trying to get a rise out of people.

(Edit: Coming back two years later to edit for clarity. It's doubtful that anyone will actually read this and I wish I would have spoken up sooner, but if someone should be reading through this thread, I want to be very clear on how I feel about this topic.)
Pound Foolish wrote: Okay, I know this isn't the point of your post at all, but pedophile? You can't a pedophile if you're a kid yourself. It's natural for males to prefer younger females, that's fairly usual. (Granted, I don't know just how young the victims were... Yulgth.)
You're right, the difference between "child molester" and "pedophile" was not the point of my post. To argue semantics over something like this, and then assert "it's natural for males to prefer younger females" in the context of a thread that is discussing child molestation is completely out of line and inappropriate. To derail a thread this serious just to be "right" without contributing anything valid to the conversation seems petty, and, frankly, tasteless. Was Josh Duggar technically a "pedophile" because of his actions towards his siblings? Technically... maybe. "Pedophile" has been described as an adult OR an older adolescent who is sexually attracted to children. I don't know the details; I don't know how old he was at the time. Was he a pedophile, a child molester? Frankly, I don't care. He sexually abused his siblings, and that is that.
Last edited by Eanrin on Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Duggar Debate

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We honestly need to have this troll removed
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GabrielleFandomGirl wrote:We honestly need to have this troll removed
Ah well, a little kindness would go a long way. Personally, I think "trolls" add something to this board, however annoying, that would be missing if there were none.

Woody, I am always amazed at how agreeable and pleasant, yet convincing your debates are. You have the rare ability to debate well, and be a peacemaker at the same time. :)
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Pound Foolish wrote:
Eanrin wrote:DredgeAmazing, rarely have I seen a more disgusting, disrespectful, inappropriate case of trolling. At least, I really, really hope you're trolling, because the alternative is even more horrifying. How can you possibly justify the actions of a pedophile and those who covered up his behavior? I just... don't even... How. Why. :?
Okay, I know this isn't the point of your post at all, but pedophile? You can't a pedophile if you're a kid yourself. It's natural for males to prefer younger females, that's fairly usual. (Granted, I don't know just how young the victims were... Yulgth.)
According to some articles I've read, he skipped the one family member closest to him in age at the time (12) and molested an 11, 10, 8, and FOUR YEAR OLD. FOUR.

Yeah, he might have "preferred" younger females. And yeah, he probably didn't have proper sex ed, so he was "curious". (I don't think anyone here brought it up, but it's an argument I've been seeing around). But when you're 14/15, you don't go and be curious with someone who is ten years younger than you.
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It is interesting. I was raised similarly to how the Duggars raised their kids, and I know some parents who raise their kids similarly. Some turn out fine; some don't. It is hilarious. We stress that it is the person's own choice to do something wrong yet here we are yelling at the whole family in general. Do I excuse what he did? No. But that we should drag down the whole family down with him? No. Yes, they didn't deal with it too well, I agree.
The Duggars get huge amounts of flak as a 'perfect' family which they are not nor do they claim to be. I don't watch their show a lot anyway. Doesn't each family have problems?
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The problem Blitz is that they do hold themselves up as moral authorities and they sought out the TV show and regularly hold up their child raising and courtship model as the only Biblicaly correct model. The family went beyond not handling this well, they covered this up, they refused to seek counseling not just for Josh but also for their daughters. Also notice that in all of their statements to the press there's no mention of the victims, this is all about Josh. They care more about him than their four daughters who were the victims, they were thrown under the bus so Josh wouldn't suffer, not to mention the girl not in the family who was silenced as well. So yes, the parents at least are to blame,
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They don't agree with most counselling most likely... Trust me I know. My parents aren't huge fans of counselling either. They probably would seek only a pastor's assistance.
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The article said they went to the elders of their church who recommend counselling and Mr Duggar didn't agree with their advice.

So Blitz what do you think the proper response should be in cases like this?
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I would say turning your child into the authorities and Christian counselling. Not that I agree with all counselling. Also I dislike how people say this is a psychological problem. It is a sin problem.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Couldn't it be both?
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Woody wrote:Dredge, first of all, can you not be a disrespectful, assuming jerk to everyone that is talking good sense? Thanks, that would help.

Secondly, I would like to make a note showing the inconsistency of your opinions.
DredgeAmazing wrote:The stupid creep who raped my friend got caught. I trusted him to improve our minds and educate us. Turns out he was teaching some of my female classmates too much.
DredgeAmazing wrote:Okay, there is so much ignorance and hate surrounding the Duggars, but they are just wonderful people! They were the only folks around who had guts enough to stand up to the Kardashians and defend God's design for gender! They are wonderful people of God, any any hate directed at them is ignorant hogwash.
This is from a post you made in the "Should the Victim Be Blamed" thread. So, let's get this straight. The guy who raped your friend is a stupid creep, and Josh, who sexually abused his sisters, is a WONDERFUL PERSON!? Please, show me how this can be viewed as even slightly logical!

And yeah, Eleventh isn't gay. And please, don't ever make assumptions about people and treat them like that again. Even if he was gay, that is likely the worst response you could possibly have, and it's responses like that that get Christians labeled as haters. If you want to be a witness for Christ, don't scream in peoples' faces about how sinful they are. Be kind and loving, and just maybe, they'll listen to you.
Josh is cleay not a Duggar. And whh is no one calling out CC and BB Winans?

-- Sat May 23, 2015 11:44 pm --
Eleventh Doctor wrote:The article said they went to the elders of their church who recommend counselling and Mr Duggar didn't agree with their advice.

So Blitz what do you think the proper response should be in cases like this?
The belt. :roll:
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DredgeAmazing wrote:Josh is cleay not a Duggar. And whh is no one calling out CC and BB Winans?
So the family should disown him? And I am unaware of these CC and BB Winans you speak of.
DredgeAmazing wrote:The belt. :roll:
Would you consider a spanking sufficient punishment for a murderer? Yeah, neither would I.

For one thing, the belt stops working at a certain age. Frankly, a bit of temporary pain doesn't sound so horrible to a teen. For another, in a situation like this, a spanking really does not cover it. I'm fairly certain that if Josh lived in the days of Levitical Law, he'd have been stoned*. ;) Thirdly, this isn't just him lying or some other small thing. This is sexual abuse. That is a serious crime against a fellow human being. I cannot even begin to understand why anyone would do such a thing. It sickens me, quite literally. Anyone who would even think of molesting anyone, much less their 4-year-old sister, clearly has some serious mental issues to work through. A spanking will not fix those issues, sorry. Something like this requires some serious counseling and some serious punishment.

*Please note that I am not advocating this approach, nor am I saying that Levitical Law is necessarily valid today
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Ashley
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I just want to know why this has come up now. If Josh was 14-15 when this happened, then when he turned 18 his criminal record should have been erased and not valid today. Or is that only in Canada…?

And I don't think that he did those things because of the pressure to be "perfect" (I think someone said that), because they didn't have their TV show then, so the whole world wasn't watching. They were just another normal family.
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