A little debate..

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
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Samantha14
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A little debate..

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Okay, let's see...
Where to begin...
Oh, yes, free will.

As most of you know, I believe strongly in this. I believe that God created man, and his path. This path has two directions. He shows us f the right way, and warns us of the wrong way..and it's consequences. However, being a just God, He gives us a choice. We can either go our own way, and face what's in the end. Or, we can choose to go the right way. God's way.I know there is much debate in this. I know we are indeed a fallen nature, and when given the choice, we lean towards sin... But, if we have Jesus in our heart, He helps us overcome sin/temptation. However, we have to choose to have Christ come into our heart. Which goes into the next part.. Does God choose who gets saved and who doesn't? The answer? No. At least, I don't believe so. I don't believe God goes through us one by one saying, 'Okay, you get to believe in me, you don't..Hmm...He does, she does...Nah, he doesn't, he has a funny nose. Umm...' (Just kidding, but you get the point.)
God's desire is for everyone to be saved. However, He isn't going to force His salvation onto anyone. He's not a tyrant or dictator. He gives us freedom. Which gives us a choice. I've always heard it as..'God is a gentleman. He won't interfere unless asked, cried out to, or called upon.' Now, bear with me. I do not use this as a dead set point. More like...a general analogy. I am fully aware, and not against the fact that sometimes God intervenes, and sometimes He doesn't. However, I see it as 'Really, we aren't waiting on God. It's God who is waiting on us.' I know that God does do things like this. He intervened and blinded Saul, who by this miracle, turned into Paul, one of the strongest Christians ever.
Sometimes by our own cry, sometimes by others,and sometimes by His own will. God works in mysterious ways. We don't know why he does what He does. But, He does. To go along with this is Psalm 115:3, 'Our God is in the heavens, and He does whatever He pleases.' Well, I believe this verse is taken out of context. (I also believe this is where Christian and I had the mis-communication about the 'gentleman' thing.) Indeed, he can and will do whatever He wants to. But, I don't see where/how that says He suddenly starts picking favorites out of all the earth.
Do I believe He chooses who He wants to work through? Yes. I do.But, do I believe that means He chooses who does and doesn't believe?No. I'm trying to recall any other scripture other than this verse to back this idea up with... None really comes to mind. Yes, He does what He wants. But, it says in His word that He wants what's best for us, and for us to follow him. But, that doesn't mean he's going to force his salvation on us. It's a gift. We can choose to accept it, or deny it. Some examples of choices in the Bible...
'God tells Adam and eve not to eat of the forbidden fruit, they choose to anyways, God punishes. God tells Jonah to teach in Ninevah, Jonah tries to flee, God punishes, Jonah sees his error and goes to teach, is still apart of, and repeats error, God punishes. God tells Noah to build the ark,Noah starts working, though he could have stopped at anytime, and the ridicule was unbearable, He chose to keep his hearts on God, and keep working.'
There are so many stories like these... However, I don't recall any for the other idea. Now, here's the thing I really want to get across.. Do I believe that God has NO say in our choice to believe? No. Of course he does. He can and does work in small and in large. Sometimes he really hits us with grand, obvious style, to show who He was, is, and is to come.And, sometimes He just chooses to influence us in the little things... Like the cool breeze on a midsummer's day, or a gift from a friend.
Does He have a say in our choices? Yes. He is the only way we can do right! Man is basically evil, we cannot do any good 'on our own understanding'. But, if we choose God, then in Him we can do all things. I'm not saying that I don't think God works on our hearts at all. In fact, it's just the opposite! I just think that in the end, you're responsible for your own actions. It's your choice. We also have the promise of second chances.
Hmm... Second chances... That seems to be a good place to start on my next topic...
Did Jesus die for everyone? My answer? Yes. My question from before was, "Why, if God created men who could never do anything but sin, would Christ have to die on the cross in the first place"? If there would be people who "God keeps" from believing, why then, would Christ have to shed His blood and take the punishment of sin for all? My received answer? Jesus didn't die for all, just His people. Um... What? I'm sorry, but I'm puzzled as to how this works... "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Hmm... Not seeing any 'Except Hitler' 's in there... How about any 'Except Terrorists' 's? No, not there... 'Kidnappers' 's? Again, no.
And why? Because, Jesus Christ, in His never ending grace, love, compassion, and mercy, came down to earth.
Though He could have made a grand 'I Am' entrance, He didn't. He humbled Himself, and came in the most fragile form of all, in the lowest place of all. He grew, and went, and taught everyone. Not jut those random few He chose out of the lot. Even thought He could have walked with royalty, he stayed with the poor, He dined with tax-collectors, He walked with the low. Then, in these things and more, He shed His blood on the cross, and made a way into Heaven... If we choose to believe.
On the third day He rose again, and is now seated upon His throne where He shall reign forever. If you want to ask questions like, "Why would Christ take the punishment of someone like Hitler who was just going to end up rotting in Hell anyways? It just doesn't make sense!" Well, if you want to get technical about it, why would Christ die for any of us? Why would He take the punishment of someone like us who should be rotting in Hell? It doesn't make any sense either! But, that's just it... That is what Salvation is all about. Grace, love, hope, compassion, mercy, and second chances. Yes, second chances. =) Well, what do you guys think? Let's talk it up! =D (Not to sound like Pound Foolish....... ;) )

(Oh, and Christian, I hope you don't take anything I've said offensively or as if I were trying to attack you. This was not my intention in the least, and I will gladly edit/re-write anything I've said that you might feel is that way. =)
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No, not offensive at all. But it is going to take me a long time to write up a response. Just know that I have read it and that I'll be working on a response. I'll try to get it back to you asap. Hopefully I can get a good amount of it done tonight.
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Jeremiah 13:23
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God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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Metal15
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I don't think God sorts through people going 'Okay, you get to believe in me, you don't..Hmm...He does, she does...Nah, he doesn't, he has a funny nose. Umm...', like you said, but I do believe that christians were predestined by God to become christians and go to heaven. Ephesians 1:5, 1:11. And if he can do that, then he can also predestine who will go to hell.

And I agree completely about us having free will. :)
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@ Metal: I don't think He predestines people to Hell, but because He predestines some of His own free will, He necessarily passes over others. Those people, in turn, go to Hell, justly, because of their sins. But God didn't predestine that they would go there. They chose that for themselves because of their sins.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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gabbygirl17
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Christian A. wrote:@ Metal: I don't think He predestines people to Hell, but because He predestines some of His own free will, He necessarily passes over others. Those people, in turn, go to Hell, justly, because of their sins. But God didn't predestine that they would go there. They chose that for themselves because of their sins.
I'm a bit confused by what you mean, Christian? What do you mean?
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That doesn't hold up internally, if there are only two places to go in the afterlife, going to heaven or going to hell, and going to heaven requires God to choose you then if He doesn't choose you then you are not choosing to go to hell you have no choice in the matter. That would be like me saying here are two choices, coke or sprite and oh by the way you can't choose sprite and you have to choose one. But it's even less of a choice in your view because God has given us a nature that is unable to choose anything but sin or coke.

So if the only thing, and in your view this is the only thing since we cannot make the decision to do anything but sin, standing between us and heaven is God deciding not to save us then He is sending us to hell because it takes nothing on His part to make that decision to save us. So why does God do that? Why does He just decide that Juan will go to hell and Bob won't? There's no difference in how Juan or Bob approached God since they were both humans with sin nature who could do nothing but sin. So why Bob but not Juan?

I'm going to be honest here, this is why I stopped being a Christian for awhile. There's no point to living if nothing we do matters. If every decision I make is just uncontrollable fate then why do anything? Why go to church? If I'm not saved then I can hear the gospel every day for the rest of my life from the most eloquent speaker filled with the Holy Spirit and it won't change anything. Why love anyone or anything? I'm not making that choice that choice has been made for me. And why witness to anyone? If Christ Himself appears before the person it won't do any good if that person is predestinated not to be saved. Nothing matters if everything we are or do is fated!
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*sighs* And, as I've said time and time again, I believe we did have a choice--in the Garden of Eden. That's when we chose Hell. Therefore, all humanity is in the same boat, headed for Hell. And God sovereignly, mercifully decided to save some. He predestined some to eternal life, and the others He left on the path to Hell.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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Do you want a coke or a sprite? A sprite? I'm sorry your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great times a million grandparent chose coke so you do too. Yeah that doesn't answer my question at all, why does anything matter if our entire existence was completely decided for us at the beginning of time?

In any case, even if Adam did somehow choose for all of us at the beginning of time didn't Christ's death make it possible for everyone to choose again? If you want to use the verses that say Adam made the choice for all of us and Christ is the second Adam doesn't that mean the consequences are reversed as well?
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I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. :P We exist for the glory of God. If He decided that the man who represented us in Eden was to plunge us all into a state of sin, with no turning back, apart from His saving grace, I hate to say it, but that's His perogative. He does whatever He wants. Some people will glorify God forever by exalting His power and justice in Hell for eternity. Only God can ultimately choose who He will spare that punishment.

As Adam was the representative for his offspring, Christ was the representative for His offspring. Christ's death effectually redeemed His people, His bride, the Church. They alone are made able to choose God, because apart from His work, no one could choose Him.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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Eleventh Doctor
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So you're saying it was part of God's original plan that Adam and Eve sin?

So Adam was the representative for everyone? But Christ, the second Adam, represents less of humanity?
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Correct. Redemption was not Plan B. God knew humanity would rebel and fall, and He planned to use the situation for His own glory, either by saving some, to glorify His mercy and grace, or by leaving some in their sin, to glorify His power and justice.

As I said, Adam acted for all who were in him, and Christ acted for all who were in Him. If we make both of them equally universal, then verses like the following become problematic:

"For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:19

"For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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Eleventh Doctor
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You've just robbed humanity of the one choice you said it had, if even Adam didn't have any choice but to sin then we are nothing but a race of automatons.
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I knew that's where you were going with it. :P I didn't say Adam didn't have a choice. I just said that God knew what Adam would do, and He planned for it.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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Eleventh Doctor
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Okay so two choices.

1) If God planned for, but did not force/predestine, action upon Adam then He could do the same for the rest of us?

2) If it was going to happen no matter what then God didn't really give Him a choice.
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1) Correct... in a sense. It's a little different for us, since we are under the influence of sin and can only do evil now. But I don't think I've ever said that God forces us to do evil. He does "predestine" it, in the sense that He predestines all things. Nothing ever happens that He hasn't planned from the beginning of time, so in that sense, the action of Adam was just as much destined to happen as any other action we commit presently.

2) I think that paradox is really just the product of a misunderstanding of God's plan and the grand scheme of things. God knew and planned all that would ever transpire for all of eternity before He created the universe. He planned to give man a free will that would be free to choose the good or the evil. He knew that the devil's temptation would be strong enough to cause the man to choose the evil. The man had a choice, but God knew the outcome of that choice. And He used that choice as part of His plan to save His people.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
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If I program a robot so that it can only preform evil and then turn it on, in every way possible I am forcing that robot to do evil. We seem to be going around in circles at this point so let's let some other people in on this conversation.
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*Pulls up a chair* I'm rooting for the Doctor in this one.
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Samantha14 wrote:Okay, let's see...
Where to begin...
Oh, yes, free will.

As most of you know, I believe strongly in this. I believe that God created man, and his path. This path has two directions. He shows us f the right way, and warns us of the wrong way..and it's consequences. However, being a just God, He gives us a choice. We can either go our own way, and face what's in the end. Or, we can choose to go the right way. God's way.I know there is much debate in this. I know we are indeed a fallen nature, and when given the choice, we lean towards sin... But, if we have Jesus in our heart, He helps us overcome sin/temptation. However, we have to choose to have Christ come into our heart. Which goes into the next part.. Does God choose who gets saved and who doesn't? The answer? No. At least, I don't believe so. I don't believe God goes through us one by one saying, 'Okay, you get to believe in me, you don't..Hmm...He does, she does...Nah, he doesn't, he has a funny nose. Umm...' (Just kidding, but you get the point.)
God's desire is for everyone to be saved. However, He isn't going to force His salvation onto anyone. He's not a tyrant or dictator. He gives us freedom. Which gives us a choice. I've always heard it as..'God is a gentleman. He won't interfere unless asked, cried out to, or called upon.' Now, bear with me. I do not use this as a dead set point. More like...a general analogy. I am fully aware, and not against the fact that sometimes God intervenes, and sometimes He doesn't. However, I see it as 'Really, we aren't waiting on God. It's God who is waiting on us.' I know that God does do things like this. He intervened and blinded Saul, who by this miracle, turned into Paul, one of the strongest Christians ever.
Sometimes by our own cry, sometimes by others,and sometimes by His own will. God works in mysterious ways. We don't know why he does what He does. But, He does. To go along with this is Psalm 115:3, 'Our God is in the heavens, and He does whatever He pleases.' Well, I believe this verse is taken out of context. (I also believe this is where Christian and I had the mis-communication about the 'gentleman' thing.) Indeed, he can and will do whatever He wants to. But, I don't see where/how that says He suddenly starts picking favorites out of all the earth.
Do I believe He chooses who He wants to work through? Yes. I do.But, do I believe that means He chooses who does and doesn't believe?No. I'm trying to recall any other scripture other than this verse to back this idea up with... None really comes to mind. Yes, He does what He wants. But, it says in His word that He wants what's best for us, and for us to follow him. But, that doesn't mean he's going to force his salvation on us. It's a gift. We can choose to accept it, or deny it. Some examples of choices in the Bible...
'God tells Adam and eve not to eat of the forbidden fruit, they choose to anyways, God punishes. God tells Jonah to teach in Ninevah, Jonah tries to flee, God punishes, Jonah sees his error and goes to teach, is still apart of, and repeats error, God punishes. God tells Noah to build the ark,Noah starts working, though he could have stopped at anytime, and the ridicule was unbearable, He chose to keep his hearts on God, and keep working.'
There are so many stories like these... However, I don't recall any for the other idea. Now, here's the thing I really want to get across.. Do I believe that God has NO say in our choice to believe? No. Of course he does. He can and does work in small and in large. Sometimes he really hits us with grand, obvious style, to show who He was, is, and is to come.And, sometimes He just chooses to influence us in the little things... Like the cool breeze on a midsummer's day, or a gift from a friend.
Does He have a say in our choices? Yes. He is the only way we can do right! Man is basically evil, we cannot do any good 'on our own understanding'. But, if we choose God, then in Him we can do all things. I'm not saying that I don't think God works on our hearts at all. In fact, it's just the opposite! I just think that in the end, you're responsible for your own actions. It's your choice. We also have the promise of second chances.
Hmm... Second chances... That seems to be a good place to start on my next topic...
Did Jesus die for everyone? My answer? Yes. My question from before was, "Why, if God created men who could never do anything but sin, would Christ have to die on the cross in the first place"? If there would be people who "God keeps" from believing, why then, would Christ have to shed His blood and take the punishment of sin for all? My received answer? Jesus didn't die for all, just His people. Um... What? I'm sorry, but I'm puzzled as to how this works... "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. That whosoever believeth in Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." Hmm... Not seeing any 'Except Hitler' 's in there... How about any 'Except Terrorists' 's? No, not there... 'Kidnappers' 's? Again, no.
And why? Because, Jesus Christ, in His never ending grace, love, compassion, and mercy, came down to earth.
Though He could have made a grand 'I Am' entrance, He didn't. He humbled Himself, and came in the most fragile form of all, in the lowest place of all. He grew, and went, and taught everyone. Not jut those random few He chose out of the lot. Even thought He could have walked with royalty, he stayed with the poor, He dined with tax-collectors, He walked with the low. Then, in these things and more, He shed His blood on the cross, and made a way into Heaven... If we choose to believe.
On the third day He rose again, and is now seated upon His throne where He shall reign forever. If you want to ask questions like, "Why would Christ take the punishment of someone like Hitler who was just going to end up rotting in Hell anyways? It just doesn't make sense!" Well, if you want to get technical about it, why would Christ die for any of us? Why would He take the punishment of someone like us who should be rotting in Hell? It doesn't make any sense either! But, that's just it... That is what Salvation is all about. Grace, love, hope, compassion, mercy, and second chances. Yes, second chances. =) Well, what do you guys think? Let's talk it up! =D (Not to sound like Pound Foolish....... ;) )

(Oh, and Christian, I hope you don't take anything I've said offensively or as if I were trying to attack you. This was not my intention in the least, and I will gladly edit/re-write anything I've said that you might feel is that way. =)
Can you summerize that please? or ask the question again?
here from time to time....

Psalm 73:24
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DanP740
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Here's a summary: read it yourself, or you obviously don't actually care about debating this topic enough to read what other people say.
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godisawesomeness99
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Sorry I'm too young to understand
here from time to time....

Psalm 73:24
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