Creationism or Evolutionism.

[DragRacingFanatic]

I'm not conceding it. There was death before the fall, plain and simple.

In light of this, I'm curious to know what you make of Romans 5, and especially Romans 5:12.

"12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— "

To me, it seems clear that this verse is saying that death was a result of sin, and the first instance of sin was the fall of man. Therefore, there could not have been death before the fall.

How do you interpret these verses?

[DanP740]

Well, humans didn't die. But other things did.

[Striped Leopard]

So was this massive destruction and death of "other things" part of God's "very good" creation...?

[DanP740]

Otherwise the world would get overrun by everything being fruitful and multiplying. Especially the bacteria, which would take over the world in a day...

[GratiaDei]

A thought about a day in Genesis being an indefinite period of time: If you believe that God can do anything, can bring light into the darkness with a single word, create man from the dust of the ground, etc, then why would he wait days or months or years before carrying out his perfect plan? If you believe that God is a reasonable and logical being, why would he do something that seems so illogical and unreasonable?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I'm confused, are you arguing for a literal six days or the days not being normal days since God could do everything either outside of time or in an instant?

[GratiaDei]

Literal six days, yeah, that was kind of confusing. I'm tired.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So if God can create all those things with a single word why did He take six literal days to carry out His perfect plan? Why not do them instantly? Since according to your own words it would be illogical and unreasonable to wait [6] days to carry out His perfect plan.

[GratiaDei]

Yes, you're absolutely right. I hadn't even thought about that. I think I need more sleep. I shall have to think about it more, because I don't have an answer right now. I would be interested to hear your views, though.

[Shtakji]

I don't know much about it, but each number has a meaning. If I remember correctly, seven is the perfect number. All throughout the Bible, you have numbers used significantly especially in Revelations.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I thought this video was relevant to our discussion. http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/ ... the-torah/

[arwen]

What the heck are you guys talking about?!?!?!

So are you saying you believe in creation but you also believe in evolution?

[DanP740]

No. There are a few different viewpoints:
Young-earth creationist: Literal days in the creation week, earth 4 to 6 thousand years old.
Old-earth creationist: Non-literal days in the creation week, earth I think somewhere around 4 billion years old.
Theistic Evolution: God started everything, then it evolved.

I am Old-earth, not theistic evolution.

[Striped Leopard]

*cough* Correction: Young-earth = 6 to 10 thousand years, not 4 to 6.

[shnoodlec.]

Here is what I belive:
God created all living things on the earth. God's days are probably different from our days, one of his days could be million of years for us. Evolution IS the six days, evolution is the hand of God creating us from the dust. I don't want to get in an argument. That is just my opinion, plain and simple. We will not grasp what happened those seven days until we are with Him, but we can try to estimate.

[NateVONgreat]

I believe what the Bible says, and I believe the original Hebrew, so I don't need to worry about things getting messed up in translation. (and there ARE problems, I suggest KJV).
"I'm not conceding it. There was death before the fall, plain and simple."
If you mean death for animals (mostly bugs) and plants, you need to first decide what Life is before you can decide if it is dead. Nowdays Life is a list of things, that fit for plants. But in bible times, trees and probably bugs weren't considered alive. God can probably also take care of his creation and keep it from dying.
"God created all living things on the earth. God's days are probably different from our days, one of his days could be million of years for us" How can you say that!? God wrote the Bible for humans, because God isn't trapped by the 4th dimension of time. he wrote יום in genesis for day which ONLY means day (not millions of years, or era or whatever. 24 hours, nothing else), people like to use the verse that says that for God a day is like a thousand years, but that is just proving the point that God isn't trapped by time, and it says thousands (not millions, and a million [a thousand-thousands] is in the bible, so if they wanted a million it could appear there.).
If each day is millions of years, it would be hard on those plants from day 3 before the sun shines on them on day 4, and the bees pollinate on day 5, God made his wonderful world in a special order on purpose.
If Genesis is un-reliable, so is the rest of the Bible, and there goes our Faith. It is important to understand and have a strong belief in this, especially in a world where Evolution is so popular, to witness, and to answer to anyone about the hope that is in us.
Search on youtube "Kent Hovind" I am sure more than one of you have heard of him, he has 7 great seminars (each like 2 -3 hours long) about Creation, Evolution, and dinosaurs, and everything is based of real science, archeology, and the Bible. He proves the Bible is 100% true, his videos changed my life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szBTl3S24MY Part I.

[Nelson S.]

Search on youtube "Kent Hovind"

I love you.

I've recommended Kent Hovind to several people before. Kent makes his arguments so clear that it's easy to understand and makes interesting at the same time.

And I agree with you 100% on what you said, Nate.

[dolphinlovr4ever]

I believe what the Bible says, and I believe the original Hebrew, so I don't need to worry about things getting messed up in translation. (and there ARE problems, I suggest KJV).
"I'm not conceding it. There was death before the fall, plain and simple."
If you mean death for animals (mostly bugs) and plants, you need to first decide what Life is before you can decide if it is dead. Nowdays Life is a list of things, that fit for plants. But in bible times, trees and probably bugs weren't considered alive. God can probably also take care of his creation and keep it from dying.
"God created all living things on the earth. God's days are probably different from our days, one of his days could be million of years for us" How can you say that!? God wrote the Bible for humans, because God isn't trapped by the 4th dimension of time. he wrote יום in genesis for day which ONLY means day (not millions of years, or era or whatever. 24 hours, nothing else), people like to use the verse that says that for God a day is like a thousand years, but that is just proving the point that God isn't trapped by time, and it says thousands (not millions, and a million [a thousand-thousands] is in the bible, so if they wanted a million it could appear there.).
If each day is millions of years, it would be hard on those plants from day 3 before the sun shines on them on day 4, and the bees pollinate on day 5, God made his wonderful world in a special order on purpose.
If Genesis is un-reliable, so is the rest of the Bible, and there goes our Faith. It is important to understand and have a strong belief in this, especially in a world where Evolution is so popular, to witness, and to answer to anyone about the hope that is in us.

You hit the nail on the head. I believe like you do and think evolution is downright STUPID. I wrote a report I may put on here about Creation VS. Evolution. It's a year old but the truth is the truth from generation to generation.

[Eleventh Doctor]

When suggesting credible speakers on issues avoid people who are currently incarcerated in a Federal prison.

If Genesis is un-reliable, so is the rest of the Bible, and there goes our Faith.

Or maybe you've misunderstood the purpose of Genesis. Why do you think the purpose of Genesis is to be a scientific or historical text book? First off that type of book didn't exist at the time of the writing of Genesis, it also doesn't say that is the purpose of that book, and lastly the historical understanding of Genesis was not as a literal scientific or historical text book.

[NateVONgreat]

But its God's holy word, that he promised to preserve, and that it is 100% true. If anyone thinks that I am un-secientific because I am unwilling to change my ideas and beliefs, he is right. I don't care what science or history "says" I care what God says.