Debating Catholicism

[Pound Foolish]

Now see here. A debate on miracles sounds lovely, but before we go into that, we must establish a few things. Truth is what is. Or, as Aristotle put it, "If one says of what is that it is, or of what is not that it is not, he speaks the truth;but if one says of what that is not, or of what is not that it is, he speaks the truth." Do you agree?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, I agree that truth is what is, with the caveat that truth is not always logical.

Can you also take another run at the 100% Man and 100% God thing too?

[Pound Foolish]

Understood.
Now, God is, is He not? After all, when Moses asked the bush, "Who are you?" He answered, "I Am."

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, I'll even agree with you that God is truth.

[Pound Foolish]

I may, though mathematics is my Achilles heal.

Logic is the explanation of what is, deeper truth, the truth behind truth, is it not? Or, truth that is more complicated. Truth is, "I have a candy bar" logic is "This is how the candy bar was made."

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, that's a horrible definition of logic. Logic is a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration. So logic would be; this is how I prove this is a candy bar.

[Pound Foolish]

Logic is a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration.

Duhhhhh... say wha?

So logic would be; this is how I prove this is a candy bar.

Oh!
Well, that's a good application of logic. People often get applications mixed up with the thing itself.
Now, clearly, we are assuming you already know a chocolate bar is a chocolate bar. *hands Eleventh Dr. a chocolate bar* See? Here's a chocolate bar. I promise you, it is one. You can take my word for it. I'm very dependable that way.
But do you know everything about the chocolate bar? No, and you never will. But we can find out as much as our minds can grasp, can't we?

[Samantha14]

http://morkeschocolates.com/chocolate-facts

I couldn't help myself. I really will stop now. Continue.

[Eleventh Doctor]

No logic is application because it is a process, you hand me a chocolate bar and tell me it is a chocolate bar. The process by which I decide whether or not I trust you is logic. Logic is not a deeper understanding of objects or things or ideas. The understanding of each of those things is another science, so there would be aspects of economics in how that chocolate bar got to me via international trade. There would be agricultural that would tell me how the coco was grown. And there would be chemistry to tell me how coco is turned into chocolate. Logic is not some catchall for knowledge, it is a process.

[Pound Foolish]

Oh, Froggy, you're wonderful. Oh, and I much enjoyed reading that.
Eleventh Dr., this is like a real-time debate almost.
Now, you say the understanding of different aspects of the universe is a science unto itself. Does this science exclude logic? Obviously not, or they would make no sense. Economics, to use your own example, is logic from beginning to end. As is the process of making cocoa into chocolate: chemistry. As is even simple things like farming the cocoa, logically planning when to harvest, how to treat the trees, the way in which cocoa is harvested. In other words, those are all more applications of logic.
PS also, if you decide whether or not the chocolate bar is a chocolate bar, you are finding things out about it, aren't you? In other words, you are finding a certain form of deeper truth.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, logic is involved in all of those processes. But to clarify this discussion why don't you provide your own definition of logic? I don't think we're quite on the same page.

[Pound Foolish]

I may, though mathematics is my Achilles heal.

Logic is the explanation of what is, deeper truth, the truth behind truth, is it not? Or, truth that is more complicated. Truth is, "I have a candy bar" logic is "This is how the candy bar was made."

[Eleventh Doctor]

Okay and as I said, that makes no sense. That is not what logic is but at least we understand what the other means when they say logic. So go ahead and make your next point.

[Pound Foolish]

Hollld on. You said logic is deciding if a chocolate bar is a chocolate bar. In a sense, that is true.
You are saying that logic is a process. That is, a thing humans do. The main distinction between our opinions seems to be you are saying logic is discovering what is, whereas I am saying that the apparent and the proof of the apparent is inherently part of our world, and as it is part of our world, it is, just like truth, and is truth. Do you agree with my statement? (It's a bit confusing.) Would you say logic can be both a human process of the mind and a natural part of the universe and spiritual world? That logic is a part of our world whether humankind is here to reason through it or not? Thus, logic ultimately is indeed truth?

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, I would not agree. Logic is simply a process we humans use to reason. What you're describing is truth, there's no reason to use another name.

Let me quote a Father of the Church to bring his wisdom to this conversation.

This is the true knowledge of what is sought; this is the seeing that consists in not seeing, because that which is sought transcends all knowledge, being separated on all sides by incomprehensibility as by a kind of darkness. Wherefore John the sublime, who penetrated into the luminous darkness, says, No one has ever seen God [Jn. 1:18], thus asserting that knowledge of the divine essence is unattainable.

[Pound Foolish]

But, if the reason and logic were not here, how could we reason logically through it?
Are you saying the world is not logical? If it is logical, then logic exists apart from man. If not, then God did not create a logical world. How can that be? Without logic, there is nothing but chaotic disharmony.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I never denied that logic existed. The world was created orderly, that is why it is not chaotic. We view the world as logical because we use the process of logic to make sense of the world. All that means is that the world was created objectively so we can use logic to deduce the objective truth. But no, the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration do not exist apart from man because without us there is no reason to have those principles and criteria. As the quote said, knowledge of the divine essence is unattainable. Thus there are things beyond our knowledge or our ability to reason.

[Pound Foolish]

Is not order logical? A square circle is not logical, that would be disorder. An orderly world is a logical world.

But no, the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration do not exist apart from man because without us there is no reason to have those principles and criteria.

Those are all part of the logical process of them mind, yes. But where did the criteria and inferences come from? Did man make them up? Could man logically chart the stars if there weren't any?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Order can be logical, but it is not logic in of itself. A square circle is not possible but has very little to do with order and again is not illogical in of itself. Yes man made up the criteria and inferences, where else would they come from? No, man could not chart stars if they were not objectively real but that does not make them logic in of itself. Logic is a series of criteria and principals, nothing more. Stop trying to make it a catchall for everything because not everything can be broken down into logic. As Fr. Farley said, love is not logical.

[Pound Foolish]

Well... actually, love is logical, but now's not the time.
What do you mean, order "can" be logical? Give one instance of illogical order.
A square circle is not illogical in of itself? Isn't such a thing inherently against the laws of logic and order?
If logic is man's thought processes, then anyone's mistake's are as logical as the truth. It can be as logical to believe water is dry as to believe is wet. A madman who tries to reason is just as likely to be right as a sane one.
If that is untrue, then logic must be something beyond man's thoughts.

Well, for the time being at least, I must bid you goodnight. This has been quite thrilling, and I may return before the day is over if you reply. But I must have dinner and do a bit more homework.