Debating Catholicism

[gabbygirl17]

I'm sure everyone would agree that this shows the trinity, but it doesn't use the word trinity. The Early Church also still had to develop a theology of the trinity. For example much of the Nicean Creed is spent on the relationship of the trinity to each other; the Father begot the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. These are things not mentioned in Scripture.

Actually trinity means three and there is three so even if it isn't used it means it.

Heres some verses about the Holy Ghost:

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


John 15:26 - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

[Striped Leopard]

...the Father begot the Son, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. These are things not mentioned in Scripture.

What do you mean by this? I'm fairly certain that these two concepts are directly out of Scripture. "God sent His only begotten Son," "the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My Name."

Did you mean something else when you said that?

[Pound Foolish]

Christian
He's saying that Catholics were the first to draw the conclusions of the trinity from such verses. Which is true if you look it up. (Mysteriously, that's true of a lot of generally accepted Christian concepts. How odd, considering we have things all wrong.)

Actually trinity means three and there is three so even if it isn't used it means it.

Nonsense alert. Because we used a word that already existed, that somehow proves we didn't invent the concept itself? That statement contains no logic.
And Eleventh Dr. already explained that while those verses most certainly do point to the truth of trinity, we Catholics first put into the theological world. The idea wasn't common knowledge until Catholic theologians came up with it and the Catholic church spread it.

[jehoshaphat]

I know it seems crazy but we actually believe in what the Bible says! I mean, we kind of put it together and protected it for 1400 years!

[UNCLEBITTLES]

Catholics can be Christians just as much as us Christians can. They can pray to saints and all that other stuff but as long as they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior and have a personnel relationship with Him then they are Christians. Sure they might have some flawed views imo about some stuff, but they're still saved.

[jehoshaphat]

UncleBittles, can I ask what flawed views we have so I can either clarify or point in a direction that will help you understand why we have those views.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Of course it wasn't just the Catholic church back then, us Orthodox had something to do with it too

[jehoshaphat]

Well, you didn't split off until about umm sometime.

[Eleventh Doctor]

You guys split off in 1054

[jehoshaphat]

I think it happened the other way around.

[Striped Leopard]

Christian
He's saying that Catholics were the first to draw the conclusions of the trinity from such verses. Which is true if you look it up. (Mysteriously, that's true of a lot of generally accepted Christian concepts. How odd, considering we have things all wrong.)

You don't have things all wrong. Just some things. ;P You claim that the early church fathers had the same views as your Church on most things, and I would say the same about mine. It was the fathers who came up with a lot of the interpretations that we have today, so the question is whether or not they would have identified themselves more closely with your denomination today, or mine.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I think there are a lot of foundational truths, such as the Trinity and Christ's nature that the Fathers would agree with all of us about. But as we've talked about in other places, I really don't think they would recognize that your bishop is your pastor, that communion is only a symbol, that the church is invisible and not visible, or the idea of predestination. I mean we have their writings, I think these things are pretty clear.

[UNCLEBITTLES]

UncleBittles, can I ask what flawed views we have so I can either clarify or point in a direction that will help you understand why we have those views.

Well for starters Catholics pray to Mary and other saints, no offense but that's really kinda stupid. Because they can't hear you, at all. The only one that will hear you when you pray is Jesus. And also Catholics believe in purgatory and that you can pray dead people into heaven, which is bull. Also Catholics believe that whenever you take communion that the cracker and grape juice or whatever you use actually turns into Jesus' body and blood, which is also bull. The Bible says (I don't remember which verse.) that Jesus was sacrifice once and for all or something to that affect. And it says that you should take communion is remembrance of Him and what he did for the world.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Maybe if you mean no offense then don't call people's views stupid or bull.

I will address the communion question since that is an issue my Tradition, Eastern Orthodoxy. shares with Roman Catholicism. This passage in John 6 seems to be pretty clear.

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

But this is just a symbol you say, truly Christ couldn't mean His actual flesh. The Jews there asked the same question.

The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

So to give the next part context, the Jews have asked, essentially, you don't mean it's really your flesh, right Jesus? And how does He answer?

Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

Nope, not just a symbol. Food and drink indeed.

[UNCLEBITTLES]

That does change the fact that the bread and the cup don't spiritually turn into Jesus' flesh and blood. Sorry bucko.

[Eleventh Doctor]

It doesn't happen just because you say so. The church before the Reformation, even some of the Reformers such as Luther, believe this. Did the entire church get it wrong until Zwingli came along? And yes I realize the argument that everyone believing it isn't proof in of itself but do you honestly think that God let the entire church fall into error for 1,500 years over such a major issue?

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

UncleBittles, can I ask what flawed views we have so I can either clarify or point in a direction that will help you understand why we have those views.

Well for starters Catholics pray to Mary and other saints, no offense but that's really kinda stupid. Because they can't hear you, at all. The only one that will hear you when you pray is Jesus. And also Catholics believe in purgatory and that you can pray dead people into heaven, which is bull. Also Catholics believe that whenever you take communion that the cracker and grape juice or whatever you use actually turns into Jesus' body and blood, which is also bull. The Bible says (I don't remember which verse.) that Jesus was sacrifice once and for all or something to that affect. And it says that you should take communion is remembrance of Him and what he did for the world.

Well, to start with the "dead saints". I'll use a lot of Bible reference in this one, since everyone here as far as I know agrees on that as an infallible source.

No one prays to dead saints, because those in heaven are more alive than we are. The Lord is God of the living, not of the dead. The fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful (Jas 5:16). Those in heaven are surely righteous, since nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rv 21:27). Those in heaven are part of the Mystical Body of Christ and have not been separated from us by death, but surround us as a great cloud of witnesses (Heb 12:1). They stand before the throne of God and offer our prayers to him (Rv 5:8) and cheer us on as we run the good race. Intercession among members of the body of Christ is pleasing to God (1 Tm 2:1-4) and even commanded by him (Jn 15:17). Those in heaven have a perfected love, so how could they not intercede for us? Christ is the vine, and we are the branches; if we are connected to him, we are inseparably bound together as well. Can the eye say to the hand, "I need you not"? Neither are we to say we don’t need the prayers of our brothers and sisters (alive here or in heaven), because salvation is a family affair.

[Metal15]

I don't wanna get into the debate really, I just wanna offer my 2 cents on the whole "Praying-to-saints" thingamajig.

Ok, so, it's the Catholic's position that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them(Am I right?). So the position of the Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers isn't any different than asking someone here on earth to pray for us. I think some Catholics, however, diverge from "official" Catholic teaching, and do in fact pray directly to the saints or Mary, asking them for help instead of asking them to intercede with God for help.

Either way, I don't see either practice with any biblical basis.

The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholics pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and the saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "approach the throne of grace with confidence."

It says in Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Apparently, there's no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, then that means Mary and the saints can't be mediators. They can't mediate our prayer requests to God.
The Bible also tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them". If Jesus Himself is interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us?

*Waits*

*Crickets*

Exactly!

Whom would God listen to more closely than His Son?

Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us also: "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God."

With Jesus and Holy Spirit, who are the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Answer(Drumroll please...):

None.

Some Catholics argue that praying to Mary or the saints is no different than asking someone on earth to pray for us. Well, Paul(the apostle) asked for prayer in Ephesians 6:19, and lots of verses talk about believers praying for each other, verses such as Ephesians 1:16, Philippians 1:19, 2 Corinthians 1:11, and 2 Timothy 1:3, but the Bible doesn't mention anywhere about anyone asking for someone in heaven to pray for him. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in heaven praying for anyone on earth. The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient, are they? Even if they're glorified in heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or talking with dead people, it's in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination—activities that God/bible strongly condemns/does-NOT-like.

God doesn't answer prayers based on who's praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in heaven has any greater access to God's throne than we do through prayer (Repeat Hebrews 4:16). And let me just say, THANK GOD FOR THAT.

So yeah. That's what I think.

Have a great rest of your day all you peoples!

[Eleventh Doctor]

Thank you for making a respectful, thought out argument.

However the entire first part of your argument, that we can come to God by ourselves and without any one interceding is also an argument against asking anyone else to pray for us too. You acknowledge that fact by saying that the Bible says to ask others on earth to pray for us but not those in heaven. But you never say why your argument against praying to the Saints doesn't also apply to those on earth, is your whole argument just that the Bible says to ask those on earth?

You said "If Jesus Himself is interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us?" If Jesus Himself is interceding for us why do others need to pray for us? Besides the Bible saying so?

Also let me clarify something, Catholics and Orthodox do not play down the importance of personal prayer to God. We place a great deal of importance on it in fact.

[Metal15]

However the entire first part of your argument, that we can come to God by ourselves and without any one interceding is also an argument against asking anyone else to pray for us too. You acknowledge that fact by saying that the Bible says to ask others on earth to pray for us but not those in heaven. But you never say why your argument against praying to the Saints doesn't also apply to those on earth, is your whole argument just that the Bible says to ask those on earth?

I understand what you're saying. I was mostly hitting on the concept of people in heaven "interceding", because I don't believe the saints have a greater "chance" of getting our prayers to God. This is kinda where assumptions come into play, I guess. If we assume that the people of Heaven are in a postion of ignorance concerning the situations on earth, then we will naturally assume those in Heaven couldn’t or wouldn’t pray for people here. Although on the other hand, if we believe it is a place of interest in and observation of God’s people on earth, and where the saints and angels talk to God, then we would naturally assume they do pray to God for those on earth. Hope that made sense. I don't claim to know all the answers, though, lol, so sorry if I sound like I'm beating around in the bush.

You said "If Jesus Himself is interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us?" If Jesus Himself is interceding for us why do others need to pray for us? Besides the Bible saying so?

Besides the bible saying so? Well, God wants us to have a relationship with him(He is our Father after all) so we talk to him.

Also let me clarify something, Catholics and Orthodox do not play down the importance of personal prayer to God. We place a great deal of importance on it in fact.

Oh, heck ya, same here, big time.