Joel Osteen

[Whitfan]

The only logical reason that I can think of that the apostles died was because they believed in Jesus when the leaders were saying he wasn't the masiah. The church was persecuted because of Jesus Christ's teachings.

Let Joel do what he wants to do. He is who he is and he's obviously not your cup of tea. He has reached millions of people. And yes I know you believe he is a false teacher. But me, and millions don't think so. So, leave us alone. Since you don't respect me, I don't respect you. Good bye from this thread.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So the church was persecuted even though Osteen says that the gospel will give you prosperity in this life? That makes absolutely no sense.

Scripture has some very bad things to say about false teachers. It also says that other Christians shouldn't remain quiet when false teaching is occurring. So no, I will not let Joel do what he wants to do. He can't claim to be a Christian, teach false doctrine, leading millions astray, and have it be no big deal. This is a big deal.

[Tea Ess]

He wants you to tithe with the end result that you will benefit financially. That is not the gospel.

This is rather off-topic, but I have something to add I consider interesting. First, I agree wholeheartedly that the gospel is not "tithe so that God will give you more money." What's interesting, though, is that in The Automatic Millionaire, the author lists, among other habits, tithing as a common habit among the financially successful.

So while I agree that this message should not be presented as the gospel (or that we should tithe with the goal of becoming wealthy), I believe that tithing makes sense in more ways than one.

[Limerick]

Hey now, let's not let this get out of hand people. There is a difference between respecting someone FOR liking Joel Osteen and respecting them in general even though they have a particular belief which is all I believe Whit is asking for. It is all right to have strong opinions, but let us keep it directed on the topic at hand: the belief involved here, not the ad hominem attacks versus the people involved.

I am not entirely familiar with the Prosperity Gospel, but, I understand enough to believe that it is badly misguided in some ways though hits on key points in others.

First, I think that when we do good things unto others, we are blessed by God, but, this is in no way, or at least not fully, due to Him rewarding us. We are blessed not by what we did but by the change in us that occurred as a result. We are blessed by Him in his great love for us, not because we have done something, that to Him, is insignificant. Our obedience in love though, that is special.

That said, blessings are not all or even perhaps, predominantly, in money. There are so many ways to be blessed, money is one of the smallest blessings (though sometimes, I know it can help greatly).

So, in those stances, I both agree and disagree.

As far as the Bible, I do also agree that all preachers have to be careful to stay close to it and be very mindful whenever verses are referenced that they seem to be going against. Do you care to try to respond to the verses Eleventh posted?

Finally, please don't use the defense "Millions like him, therefore he must be good." I understand what you're getting at, but, that doesn't really defend it, and honestly makes it feel like there is something you feel you need to defend. All of us are happy to see other sides defend their points in a logical and clear manner, eh? *is not looking at any one of you in particular*

Let us keep the respect train rolling, okay?

[Doll]

Just a couple quotes from AIO that I thought of when I was reading through the discussion.

"You believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I believe, and pretty soon, no one knows what to believe, would you believe, believe it or not."

"A lie believed by a million people is still a lie." - John Avery Whittaker

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, let me be clear, Whit I respect you as a person and I want to have a discussion with you.

Those quotes are very good God's Girl

[Whitfan]

Okay. I am just saying that people have been saved by this man. I believe in the prosperity gospel because I think as I have stated it doesn't necessarily have to do with money. I am respecting Eleventh Doctor, but they said they don't respect me for liking a false teacher. What more can be said? He doesn't teach good doctrines, teaches the prosperity gospel. He may or may not save people. But I say end this on a positive note. I like him and I feel I HAVE defended myself enough. I also emailed them directly to get some help on how to make people realize that I like him. And I am not forcing anyone to like him. I will post what they say. If you don't believe it, then fine. How hard is it to realize I like him? You can say he's a false teacher all you want. I will just say this: he to me makes me realize that when I'm down and out, I can lift my head up and be positive. And that's what I am trying to do. Can you understand that or is it too hard for you? If you can understand it, I say that we should end the discussion.

I am done and hope you guys have a good life. God bless you all.

[GratiaDei]

So you don't have an answer for the verses that Eleventh posted that say that we aren't even guaranteed non-money things in this life, things like family and friends?

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." Matthew 10:34

Where in the gospel does it say that if we follow God we will gain anything in this world other than a promise of the life to come? Am I missing a verse where it says, "If you follow me, you will have friends and family and love."?

Also, Eleventh is not saying that she doesn't respect you, just that she does not respect your opinion in this matter.

[Blitz]

Why should some one get millions of dollars for preaching prosperity while million are starving and missionaries struggle? And the people who get saved by the prosperity preachers usually either wind up forsaking Christianity or turn in Sunday only Christians. I have seen first hand what they do to Africa. People live a double life. They don't really grow in their faith if they even have one. They call themselves Christians then go drink after church.

[The Old Judge]

Just so you all know, I will be monitoring this thread now, since people have been offended. This is a good topic, though, so let's all give a round of applause to Whitfan.

Joel Osteen. What can we say about him? First off, I always say "Olsteen", so typing it right feels strange. I don't know that much about him, but from what I understand, that whole shabang does there was started by his father years ago. He just propelled it to mammoth proportions with the self-help books, the television program, etc. I must admit, he is not someone who I would endorse. The prosperity gospel I do not like, and same goes for the self-help books. My preacher's even talked about "Smilin' Joel" in the front of Christian bookstores. I have heard that he is soft on the topic of sin, which is an integral part of our faith. (We're all sinners, and if people don't think they're worthy of eternal [censored] they won't be receptive to the salvation message.) But if he has led even one soul to the Lord, I will not rake him over the coals. The value of one soul is more important than any squabbling over other issues are. But could you explain to me, Whitfan, how he has seen people saved if he doesn't discuss or preach sin?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Hmm, several people have brought up this idea that if he has saved one soul then we can excuse whatever issues there might be with his teachings. But why is that? If he is preaching a fake gospel then anyone who comes to him for teaching is led astray. And could we say this about any issue? If I deny the divinity of Christ but I get someone to believe in God am I okay?

[Pound Foolish]

This has nothing to do with the debate, but since everyone is making an issue about being offended, it's worth pointing out that Eleventh Doctor has been quite respectful though frank, while Whitifan has called Doctor a "bully."

[Liz'alike]

I've been following this thread and would have to agree with PF's on this one (It just keeps happening, PF! lol)
Whitfan, there really is no need to get offended. In the instance of debating, it's gotta be live and let live, otherwise we'd all be on the floor ripping each others hair out in a violent brawl of disagreement. lol
Now, I'm not going to say who's right and whose wrong here... But everyone has his or her own opinion. You can either take it as someone else's opinion or be convicted otherwise. No need to take things personally or feel as if you're under attack.

Alright, I'm done! Have fun kids!

[SirWhit]

Would someone who believes in the prosperity gospel care to explain the scriptural "support" for it for those who do not understand it?

[John Henry]

Indeed, does Joel Osteen deny the NT?

[TigerShadow]

No, although he did at one point deny the teachings of the New Testament on the matter of homosexuality. (Source: http://unitedforawakening.com/joel-oste ... -and-john/)

[John Henry]

He's strange...He looks strange. Also, the prosperity Gospel is against other Scriptures - i.e. Matthew 19.

[TigerShadow]

He's strange...He looks strange.

Someone call CNN. I'm actually in agreement with John Henry.

That smile and that hair... -shudder- I know we shouldn't judge others' appearances, but personally, I think that in many ways he looks like a middle-aged Ken doll.

[Doll]

That smile and that hair... -shudder- I know we shouldn't judge others' appearances, but personally, I think that in many ways he looks like a middle-aged Ken doll.

Woah, this made me laugh so hard. xD

I don't agree with his "teachings" at all.

[John Henry]

Why does he believe that a homosexual can enter the kingdom of God (note: in case misunderstanding arises I'm talking about homosexuals who don't get saved & then renounce their ways).