A little debate..

[Eleventh Doctor]

To sum up this thread, we are discussing several questions. Do we as humans have free will and can we use that free will to accept the gift of the Holy Spirit? Also did Christ die for everyone or just those that would accept the gift of the Holy Spirit?

@Christian I really want you to expand on this idea that you mentioned in the chat that some how the nature of our free will changed from the time of Acts to modern day. I really don't think that's found in Scripture or in the Early Church.

[Striped Leopard]

If I program a robot so that it can only preform evil and then turn it on, in every way possible I am forcing that robot to do evil. We seem to be going around in circles at this point so let's let some other people in on this conversation.

That's not what I said. To use your analogy, I said that God programmed a robot that had the ability to obey His commands or to disobey His commands. He knew that it would choose to disobey, but He gave it the choice anyway, still making the plans for what would happen when it disobeyed.

I really want you to expand on this idea that you mentioned in the chat that some how the nature of our free will changed from the time of Acts to modern day. I really don't think that's found in Scripture or in the Early Church.

I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't saying anything about the nature of our free will changing. I was saying that the nature of our possession of the Holy Spirit changed. Before Pentecost, the Holy Spirit still did His work in the hearts of those who would believe; but He did not indwell them, because Christ had not yet ascended to heaven and sent Him. After Pentecost, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the consequent signs and wonders were largely a sign to the Jews that the Gentiles were now accepted into the kingdom of God, by the grace of God, in the same way as they were. Today, we also have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is a result of our repentance and faith, though I don't believe the signs and wonders happen anymore, because they are no longer needed as a sign to the Jews.

I was probably very unclear about that last night, because I hadn't really gotten it all sorted out in my brain yet. But just a few minutes after logging off the chat and going to bed, I was regretting the way I had explained it, because I should have been clearer. Hopefully this is clearer to you.

[Eleventh Doctor]

But to take the analogy a bit further you would say that the first time the robot disobeyed a command from then on that robot and every robot made from then on would only be able to disobey commands?

Okay but to clarify in Acts 2 when St. Peter is talking to the Jewish people assembled from around the world in Jerusalem and he says repent and then accept the gift of the Holy Spirit that is a unique situation in that in that one instance our justification/salvation, whatever term you use, was synergistic but no more in the modern world? I really don't like this idea that signs have ceased, are you really saying miracles no longer happen in the modern world?

This is clearer but only slightly less confusing

[gabbygirl17]

Wait so what do you mean Christian? Are you saying that God chooses certain people for Heaven and Hell??

[Striped Leopard]

I'm slightly ticked right now at my computer. I just wrote out a whole response, and it got erased. I may respond later...or tomorrow. But I don't feel like writing all of that out again just yet.

[Jason]

Before I begin, let me just say that I will do my best to present this post in a way that will step on as few toes as possible...

From what I gather we're discussing free will, and Heaven and Hell. To say that God predestines those to come to him and destines all others to Hell is something I don't agree with. (If this isn't exactly what you were getting at then I'm sorry for misinterpreting.)

Before I get too far I will say that this gets into a grey area for me. However there are key things that I do believe.

Our choice to sin is our choice. God doesn't have a say in whether or not we sin. He may or may not have a "feeling" of what we might choose, but he doesn't say this person rejects me so this is what he'll be doing today. I also believe that while God loves us and wants us all to be with him he doesn't force us to come to him. He has a play in our moments where we accept him though. You could almost say that he "draws" us to him but it's still our choice to choose him or not.

On a different angle, I believe that if God is not the choice than one has chosen Satan, for the Bible says that one cannot serve two masters. So in cases like suicide I don't believe that God predestined them to die like that, but that it was a series of choices as a result of free will.(Maybe I shouldn't have opened that can of worms but it makes my point....) Does God predestine our decisions? I don't believe so. He may or may not have a "feeling" of what could happen next, but I don't really believe that he would intentionally inflict pain and death on people. Pain and death are a result of the original sin, which in turn continues today.

[Renae]

*Pulls up a chair* I'm rooting for the Doctor in this one.

*drags her comfy recliner next to Jimmy's chair and sits down* I love a good debate! (:

[Eleventh Doctor]

@Jason Can you expand on what you mean by God may or may not have a "feeling" of what we will do?

Because I would say that God definitely knows everything, He does not experience time in the same way we do, He is omniscient. But foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. God has a path that He wants us to take but we have to choose to do so but because God has foreknowledge He will work out all things for good.

[Jason]

@Jason Can you expand on what you mean by God may or may not have a "feeling" of what we will do?

Because I would say that God definitely knows everything, He does not experience time in the same way we do, He is omniscient. But foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. God has a path that He wants us to take but we have to choose to do so but because God has foreknowledge He will work out all things for good.

Maybe that makes more sense than what I said. But somehow I feel like Predestination and how you described fore knowledge is pretty much the same thing... Maybe they aren't but it comes rather close. However, I would say that I believe foreknowledge is closer to what I was getting at.

Let's look at a bank robber as an example. Predestination says that freewill is of the mind, but ultimately the decisions made were destined to happen resulting in a destined afterlife.
Foreknowledge says that the robber made his own choices along the way. And while God didn't make it happen, he saw it coming and ultimately the afterlife is a result of the choices made.

I guess my question is this; Is foreknowledge the same as "God's Will" and does God's Will differ from predestination?...

My usage of "may or may not" is referring to my inferences as a human. I can speculate the nature of God, but some things I may not fully know until I'm not here to communicate a confirmation or a denial of certain things thought to be true.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Foreknowledge is different than God's will and predestination. God's will is that we live perfect lives and during the course of our life we will not live perfectly but because God is outside of time and all knowing He already knows how we will stray from His will, God is not sitting on some cloud and suddenly looks down is like "Oh wow, I didn't know Joe would do that! I had an idea that he might do that but I couldn't say 100% that he would do that." God is not playing the odds about what we might do, He already knows what we will do even though the choice is still with us.

[Jason]

Foreknowledge is different than God's will and predestination. God's will is that we live perfect lives and during the course of our life we will not live perfectly but because God is outside of time and all knowing He already knows how we will stray from His will, God is not sitting on some cloud and suddenly looks down is like "Oh wow, I didn't know Joe would do that! I had an idea that he might do that but I couldn't say 100% that he would do that." God is not playing the odds about what we might do, He already knows what we will do even though the choice is still with us.

I spose that makes sense. But how would you explain that to someone who is very unversed in the church? They all seem so close together, and very close to contradictory....

[Eleventh Doctor]

I would explain it like this. St. John of Damascus said "God does not will evil to be done, nor does He force virtue." We have free will but God is all knowing. Yes that seems very close to contradictory but the distinction is important. The main part that I want to get across to you is that God is all knowing because you seemed to be bringing that into question.

[Wretched Sinner]

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh. We exist for the glory of God. If He decided that the man who represented us in Eden was to plunge us all into a state of sin, with no turning back, apart from His saving grace, I hate to say it, but that's His perogative. He does whatever He wants. Some people will glorify God forever by exalting His power and justice in Hell for eternity. Only God can ultimately choose who He will spare that punishment.

As Adam was the representative for his offspring, Christ was the representative for His offspring. Christ's death effectually redeemed His people, His bride, the Church. They alone are made able to choose God, because apart from His work, no one could choose Him.

Yes, but if a teammate on a sports team commits a foul, that will hurt the whole team