Oh, okay. Just making sure.
My reason: The Bible says man is wicked. Desperately wicked. And since I believe the Bible, yes, I believe man is basically evil. All the logic in the world cannot convince me otherwise.
Yes, God made me (is there anything He hasn't?). And in a perfect world (but this is not a perfect world), I would have been perfect. As I am not perfect, it seems somewhat illogical to believe that I am basically good. I know myself all too well. If I was basically good, I wouldn't do the sinful things I do, because hey, I'm basically good! My basic nature would know it's wrong, and I wouldn't do it. Despite the fact that my flesh would be screaming for release, I wouldn't because it would be...well...my nature to be good!
See my point?
Is man basically good, or basically evil?
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Eleventh Doctor
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Your interpretation of the Bible says man is fundamentally evil, I'll go one step further and say your Bible does indeed say man is fundamentally evil but as I showed your Biblical text seems to have drastically changed the meaning of those verses. The Psalms verse in your text says "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." But in my text it says "For I know my lawlessness, And my sin is always before me." That is such a huge difference, the Bible alone cannot settle this issue because it is not without context and it needs interpretation.
You can be basically good but corrupted but to say that man is basically evil seems to me to be saying that there is a force more powerful than God that changes our very nature to basically evil. That is not the case. You still sin because of the corruption, so no I don't see your point.
You can be basically good but corrupted but to say that man is basically evil seems to me to be saying that there is a force more powerful than God that changes our very nature to basically evil. That is not the case. You still sin because of the corruption, so no I don't see your point.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Um...where did you show this? 
That my text drastically changed the meaning?
What translation are you using? Cause the Psalms verses don't look like they're the same ones, even with different translations. Just saying. Agreed, the Bible alone is not sufficient...the Holy Spirit must reveal to us what it means. And context is very important.
Okay...so you don't get it. I'm not really sure how to explain it differently, so oh well.
That my text drastically changed the meaning?What translation are you using? Cause the Psalms verses don't look like they're the same ones, even with different translations. Just saying. Agreed, the Bible alone is not sufficient...the Holy Spirit must reveal to us what it means. And context is very important.
Okay...so you don't get it. I'm not really sure how to explain it differently, so oh well.
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Eleventh Doctor
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I showed this on page 4 earlier in this thread.
I'm using the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint translation.
But yes the Holy Spirit and context are very important, which is why I don't understand how all the logic in the world could never make you change your mind. You've admitted that what we're saying makes sense but then refuse to believe it, there's a large amount of disconnect there; do you not use logic when you look at the Bible?
I'm using the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint translation.
But yes the Holy Spirit and context are very important, which is why I don't understand how all the logic in the world could never make you change your mind. You've admitted that what we're saying makes sense but then refuse to believe it, there's a large amount of disconnect there; do you not use logic when you look at the Bible?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Oh, okay, I'll go look it up. Thanks.
Wow...who's St. Athanasius?
Because logic isn't necessarily what the Holy Spirit tells us. Yes, sometimes logic does line up with the Bible, and then again, sometimes it doesn't. So while logic tells me that man is basically good, the Bible tells me otherwise. I do use logic.
But logic is not the key to everything.
Wow...who's St. Athanasius?
Because logic isn't necessarily what the Holy Spirit tells us. Yes, sometimes logic does line up with the Bible, and then again, sometimes it doesn't. So while logic tells me that man is basically good, the Bible tells me otherwise. I do use logic.
But logic is not the key to everything.
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Eleventh Doctor
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St. Athanasius was a 4th century bishop of Alexandria who was one of the main defenders of Trinitarianism against Arianism at the First Council of Nicea. He wrote On the Incarnation, one of the classical theological works on Christ.
I agree with you that logic isn't everything but you seem to think logic is never the answer. You say that sometimes logic does line up with the Bible and sometimes it doesn't, so how do you decide when that is? You're saying it doesn't line up right now but that's because of your interpretation of the Bible, how did you come about your interpretation?
I agree with you that logic isn't everything but you seem to think logic is never the answer. You say that sometimes logic does line up with the Bible and sometimes it doesn't, so how do you decide when that is? You're saying it doesn't line up right now but that's because of your interpretation of the Bible, how did you come about your interpretation?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
I wouldn't say logic is never the answer. I do think it sometimes is (eg. If you jump off a 50-story building you will smash every bone in your body when you hit the ground)
But in the context of whether man is basically good or evil, I'd have to say that logic doesn't fit. Logic tells me I am basically good. The Bible tells me I am basically evil.
As for my interpretation, I'd say this: based on everything I've ever read in the Bible, based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, and based (oddly enough) on what I see happening in the world around me...I've come to the conclusion that man is basically evil.
But in the context of whether man is basically good or evil, I'd have to say that logic doesn't fit. Logic tells me I am basically good. The Bible tells me I am basically evil.
As for my interpretation, I'd say this: based on everything I've ever read in the Bible, based on what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me, and based (oddly enough) on what I see happening in the world around me...I've come to the conclusion that man is basically evil.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Two things, one happening in the world around you, what do you mean by that?
And second, so everything you've read in the Bible and that has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit. Did you grow up in a church that believed man is basically evil?
And second, so everything you've read in the Bible and that has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit. Did you grow up in a church that believed man is basically evil?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Oh, the evil things mankind does to itself. Wars, bombings, killings...the works. Not to mention natural disasters.
Nope, I didn't grow up in a church. I grew up reading the Bible, listening to my spiritual mentor talk about God, and talking to God myself.
Nope, I didn't grow up in a church. I grew up reading the Bible, listening to my spiritual mentor talk about God, and talking to God myself.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Can you clarify how natural disasters are evidence of the evilness of mankind?
Ah, forgive me for the assumption. If you don't mind sharing, was there a reason for not going to church growing up?
So you did have a spiritual mentor, would I be correct in guessing that he also believes in the evil of mankind?
But in any case, when you were reading the Bible didn't you use logic to interpret what you were reading? Either you used logic, if you were interpreting it for yourself. Or you didn't and just read the Bible to confirm what your spiritual mentor told you.
Ah, forgive me for the assumption. If you don't mind sharing, was there a reason for not going to church growing up?
So you did have a spiritual mentor, would I be correct in guessing that he also believes in the evil of mankind?
But in any case, when you were reading the Bible didn't you use logic to interpret what you were reading? Either you used logic, if you were interpreting it for yourself. Or you didn't and just read the Bible to confirm what your spiritual mentor told you.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Man sinned, bringing sin into the world. Thus, God cursed it. Hence, natural disasters.
No problem.
I never really went to church because A. I moved around some and B. I'm not the most sociable of people and C. Most churches didn't have the solid Biblical foundation that I was seeking. Even now, you'll probably remember that I said I'm in a house-church. So I don't grow up in a church...not in the traditional sense, anyway.
While I've never actually put the question directly to my mentor, I'd say yes, from comments and observations he has made in the past, he believes that man is basically evil. Though he'd also argue that man is created in the likeness of God, and therefore how can man be evil? That answer to that question would be that man sinned. (I know him fairly well, so I can predict his arguments, but this is just a bet, so I'm not 100% certain)
Hmm...I'm not sure if I used logic. I guess I'd say I used logic. But mostly I prayed to the Holy Spirit to interpret for me. And what my mentor would say usually lined up with what the Bible said (he's human, so he wasn't always right)
No problem.
I never really went to church because A. I moved around some and B. I'm not the most sociable of people and C. Most churches didn't have the solid Biblical foundation that I was seeking. Even now, you'll probably remember that I said I'm in a house-church. So I don't grow up in a church...not in the traditional sense, anyway.While I've never actually put the question directly to my mentor, I'd say yes, from comments and observations he has made in the past, he believes that man is basically evil. Though he'd also argue that man is created in the likeness of God, and therefore how can man be evil? That answer to that question would be that man sinned. (I know him fairly well, so I can predict his arguments, but this is just a bet, so I'm not 100% certain)
Hmm...I'm not sure if I used logic. I guess I'd say I used logic. But mostly I prayed to the Holy Spirit to interpret for me. And what my mentor would say usually lined up with what the Bible said (he's human, so he wasn't always right)
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Eleventh Doctor
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I do agree that with the fall nature was corrupted too but I wouldn't say God cursed the world.
I do remember you saying you were currently in a house-church, can you maybe expand on that and share what that looks like? I'm curious. Also how would you define solid Biblical foundation?
Can I ask who your mentor is? I would agree that sin corrupted our nature but that it didn't alter our fundamental nature, there's a big difference between the two.
You're also human, so maybe consider that if logic says man isn't evil then maybe you were wrong in your interpretation of what the Bible said? I really don't see it as an either or situation.
I do remember you saying you were currently in a house-church, can you maybe expand on that and share what that looks like? I'm curious. Also how would you define solid Biblical foundation?
Can I ask who your mentor is? I would agree that sin corrupted our nature but that it didn't alter our fundamental nature, there's a big difference between the two.
You're also human, so maybe consider that if logic says man isn't evil then maybe you were wrong in your interpretation of what the Bible said? I really don't see it as an either or situation.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Oh, He didn't? Coulda fooled me.
Well, in my house-church, it's composed of a family of eight plus me. The dad is the teacher and music-leader. We are the choir. We start off with songs (on guitar) that are displayed on a screen, and then the teacher will read a passage from the Bible, explaining things about it (the context, what it means, how it relates to current events...stuff like that). This usually lasts about 45-60 min, after which we pray and church is officially over. I'm at the house a lot, tho, so sometimes we'll get discussions started on weekdays about Biblical things. Oh, and the teacher is my mentor. I've known him all my life, and he's like my dad. I will add that while he doesn't have a doctorate in pretty much anything, he's a brilliant and highly-skilled man who loves God with all his heart and is always trying to help me and his kids follow the Lord with all of our hearts. He got saved when he was 15. And he's never once looked back.
I'm curious...what exactly IS our fundamental nature? What do you mean when you say that?
Hmm...I see your point. Perhaps I was wrong. I won't deny that I can make errors, have made errors, and will continue to make errors. But in this area, I'm quite certain that man is basically evil.
Well, in my house-church, it's composed of a family of eight plus me. The dad is the teacher and music-leader. We are the choir. We start off with songs (on guitar) that are displayed on a screen, and then the teacher will read a passage from the Bible, explaining things about it (the context, what it means, how it relates to current events...stuff like that). This usually lasts about 45-60 min, after which we pray and church is officially over. I'm at the house a lot, tho, so sometimes we'll get discussions started on weekdays about Biblical things. Oh, and the teacher is my mentor. I've known him all my life, and he's like my dad. I will add that while he doesn't have a doctorate in pretty much anything, he's a brilliant and highly-skilled man who loves God with all his heart and is always trying to help me and his kids follow the Lord with all of our hearts. He got saved when he was 15. And he's never once looked back.
I'm curious...what exactly IS our fundamental nature? What do you mean when you say that?
Hmm...I see your point. Perhaps I was wrong. I won't deny that I can make errors, have made errors, and will continue to make errors. But in this area, I'm quite certain that man is basically evil.
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Eleventh Doctor
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So God placed a curse, defined as "a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something." On the entire earth? He spoke with the intention of creating evils such as natural disasters? That doesn't sound like the God I worship.
Thank you for the description, it was very informative.
I mean what are we at our very core, what makes us human? I would argue it is being made in God's image and I could never see how we could be so totally corrupted that we lose God's image in us, that's why I say corrupted. The point is that there is something there to repair, we are not totally evil.
Thank you for the description, it was very informative.
I mean what are we at our very core, what makes us human? I would argue it is being made in God's image and I could never see how we could be so totally corrupted that we lose God's image in us, that's why I say corrupted. The point is that there is something there to repair, we are not totally evil.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Don't forget, 11th, that God wiped out the earth with a giant flood. That was quite devastating.
I'm the leader of the KRE, the group dedicated to countering ERK the Emily-centered cult. Join either team, you'll have a blast.
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Eleventh Doctor
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I didn't forget that, it is a hard thing to fathom but that is very different than "cursing" the world.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
It fit into the description of "placing a curse" that you gave. (Not trying to go off topic)
I'm the leader of the KRE, the group dedicated to countering ERK the Emily-centered cult. Join either team, you'll have a blast.
My Youtube channel --> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8Nt7 ... ILthNNlUww
Feminism is cray.
FREEDOM!!!
Music FB page: https://www.facebook.com/louismusicdefinitelyofficial/
My Youtube channel --> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa8Nt7 ... ILthNNlUww
Feminism is cray.
FREEDOM!!!
Music FB page: https://www.facebook.com/louismusicdefinitelyofficial/
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Eleventh Doctor
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I can see your point but I would distinguish between a one time event and the cursing of the whole earth for all time. Again God does not will evil to happen, it could be argued that the flood was not evil since there was no righteous man on earth besides Noah but the same cannot be said of natural disasters today.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
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Starflower1234
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If you don't believe that God cursed the earth, then what is he doing in these verses?
Genesis 3:14-24 (ESV)
14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." 16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." 17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." 20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
The punishment for sin was death, both spiritual and physical, and the above. That seems to fit the definition of a curse. God didn't want (I'm sorry if that's not the right word) to curse the earth, but as a punishment for sin, He did. Romans 8:20-22 also seems to refer to the curse on the earth.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 the the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
What would you call that if not a curse? People have used the "that doesn't sound like the God I worship" or, "a good God wouldn't do that" to say that God wouldn't allow people to be punished eternally for their sin, or that God wouldn't allow bad things to happen to us here on earth. It's not that God wants evil to happen, He is good, and He is love. But He is also not like us. He is perfect. He is holy. We can't really understand everything about Him. The curse on the earth and things like natural disasters are consequences of sin. Death is a consequence of sin. Being punished in eternal flames is a consequence of sin. God doesn't cause evil to happen or want it to happen. It is a consequence of sin. But yet, He is sovereign and in control at the same time. It's not that He's surprised by evil, and sometimes He may allow it for reasons unknown to us, like in Job. But I don't believe He causes it with the intent of hurting us.
Genesis 3:14-24 (ESV)
14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. 15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." 16 To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." 17 And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return." 20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living. 21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--" 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. 24 He drove out the man, and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim and a flaming sword that turned every way to guard the way to the tree of life.
The punishment for sin was death, both spiritual and physical, and the above. That seems to fit the definition of a curse. God didn't want (I'm sorry if that's not the right word) to curse the earth, but as a punishment for sin, He did. Romans 8:20-22 also seems to refer to the curse on the earth.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 the the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
What would you call that if not a curse? People have used the "that doesn't sound like the God I worship" or, "a good God wouldn't do that" to say that God wouldn't allow people to be punished eternally for their sin, or that God wouldn't allow bad things to happen to us here on earth. It's not that God wants evil to happen, He is good, and He is love. But He is also not like us. He is perfect. He is holy. We can't really understand everything about Him. The curse on the earth and things like natural disasters are consequences of sin. Death is a consequence of sin. Being punished in eternal flames is a consequence of sin. God doesn't cause evil to happen or want it to happen. It is a consequence of sin. But yet, He is sovereign and in control at the same time. It's not that He's surprised by evil, and sometimes He may allow it for reasons unknown to us, like in Job. But I don't believe He causes it with the intent of hurting us.
I made a promise, Mr. Frodo. A promise. "Don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee." And I don't mean to. I don't mean to. - Sam from The Fellowship of the Ring movie
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you! - Sam from The Return of the King movie
I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you! - Sam from The Return of the King movie
I agree with everything Starflower said, Eleventh. So that would be my answer to your question about curses.
I hope I wasn't too informative...I tend to give TMI sometimes. *rolls eyes at self*
And as odd as it may sound, I actually agree with this:
I hope I wasn't too informative...I tend to give TMI sometimes. *rolls eyes at self*
And as odd as it may sound, I actually agree with this:
Eleventh Doctor wrote:I mean what are we at our very core, what makes us human? I would argue it is being made in God's image and I could never see how we could be so totally corrupted that we lose God's image in us, that's why I say corrupted. The point is that there is something there to repair, we are not totally evil.