Castles and Cauldrons

[NateVONgreat]

Is your uncle Jimmy's age? I am pretty sure he can fend for himself. However, I have heard of and seen examples of these types of things, they are very serious matters. Satan has a lot of power, if we don't stand on our guard he can get to us in lots of terrible ways.

We might think they are foolish and no big deals, or we might think we are doing good, when infact Satan has us on a leash. Or maybe its just because I am from an over-cautious Orthodox congregation, but I would rather miss out on a role playing game, than end up a horrible person and go to hell.

[Novatom]

I always thought Len's name was pronounced "Glen" when I heard this episode. Anyway, as I said before, this episode creeps me out. Len is so weird, it's creepy to think any might be on drugs like Mr. Barcley said he might be. I feel like I'm like Jimmy when I heard this episode. I've only heard it once, so I wouldn't be able to quote him, but I remember Jimmy telling his dad and Whit after the camping scene that that night with Len was so spooky, and that he would never do anything like that again (or something like that)!

[NateVONgreat]

I agree 100%! I really felt like I was Jimmy, Like I was really in the episode. And I hope it was only the sound effects and music that made me feel so in it, but I could also feel the evil presence. (whit didn't really, he is made up, so only me)

[Mandy]

I really liked Castles and Cauldrons. It's good. My uncle was into Dungeons and Dragons for a long time and it does have demonic influence! It's dangerous!

[TigerShadow]

Just because something has magic in it doesn't make it dangerous or occultic. =/ The closest D&D (or any other role-playing game) gets to being dangerous is when you get into live-action roleplaying, or LARPing, which is considered to be a pretty weird thing even among the RPG community.

I'm not going to argue that real-world magic and the occult are things that may be taken lightly, but if you know that the magic isn't real, then I think it's a matter of personal conviction as to whether or not you read books or watch movies or play games with magic in them. I'm a huge Harry Potter fan, but for one thing, that magic isn't even the kind of magic spoken of in the Bible, and for another thing, I am intelligent enough to understand that Rowling's Wizarding world and the real world are two different places. As much as real life informs fiction, especially in the way that more intangible things like politics, interpersonal relationships, and morality work, a fake world constructed by an author or other creator and the world that God created are not the same thing, and therefore some plot elements are allowed in fiction that one could not allow in real life.

The oversimplification of fantasy magic is the reason why I have problems with "Castles & Cauldrons". That episode sets up a strawman of the most extreme perspective possible—"let's go and play a fantasy game where we can summon spirits, because that's awesome and fun, unlike those boring adults with their 'Christian' stuff!"—rather than an open and honest discussion. As much as AIO is supposed to be a starting point for discussion, it also needs to portray a perspective that isn't as extremely black-and-white as that episode is. Most of the time, the show does a good job with that, but not always; these two episodes are an unfortunate exception.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So first off what was being described in the episode in no way relates to how Dungeons and Dragons is actually played. Secondly having played RPGs since high school and now running several games of my own I can say that there is nothing inherently demonic about Dungeons and Dragons specifically and RPGs in general. In fact Gary Gygax the creator of D&D was a Christian. My priest runs a game of Dungeons and Dragons with some of his friends. This is a harmless fun game no different than a board game.

[TigerShadow]

So first off what was being described in the episode in no way relates to how Dungeons and Dragons is actually played.

Exactly. What's being described, again, is LARPing, which is only done by a specific subset of RPGers and is considered by even the RPG community as a whole to be really, really out there.

[Hermione]

This is a little bit off-topic, but I have to say that I'm somewhat saddened by the attitudes of some of the older/more experienced Soda Shop members recently. When I first joined the Soda Shop, I was really impressed by how kind all the members were to one another, which is not an impression that I've gotten recently.

There seems to be a group of members whose main goal on this board seems to be to wander around congratulating one another on their bitingly witty posts, and I can't say as it's changed the board's dynamic for the better. :/ I am by no means opposed to healthy, thoughtful discussion, but some posts are coming off as downright hostile. The Soda Shop is geared towards younger kids, and as such I think that the older members might need to extend the younger members a little more grace.

Back on topic, I can't take these episodes seriously anyway because all I can think when I listen to them is, "Why is Richard Maxwell masquerading as the Barclays' cousin?" Very distracting.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Hermione as one of those users and the leader of a faction of similar users let me ask for everyone's forgiveness over this matter. What you describe is a problem that is happening, as a group we have seen this in ourselves and committed ourselves to changing our attitudes. Please forgive us everyone who has been hurt, we will do better in the future.

Haha, I always had that same thought about Richard Maxwell

[SirWhit]

I must confess that after thinking about it, I've seen this change in myself over the last few months. I've become too vitriolic in my debates at times, largely because of the fact that I tend to get too invested in my debates sometimes. This also is in part because of the influx of trolls we've had lately but that is no excuse. Please accept my apology and I would ask for the boards forgiveness.

[TigerShadow]

Yeah, this is why I made that post in the Debate Vampires thread. I basically grew up debating and arguing my perspective, and I'm in environments where I am expected to be able to thoroughly pick people apart and take them down on a regular basis. Most of the time when I do debate on here, I'm debating with and against other people who are also pretty seasoned (Eleventh, Pound Foolish, Arnold, et cetera), and generally we can get by with not only being sharp with one another, but also a little bit snarky—we're not just fellow users, we're friends.

As a result, I don't think we're always used to discussing with younger or less experienced members who don't know us, but instead of taking that into consideration, we treat them the same way we would one of the regulars, and by so doing we intimidate people and drive them off. The past couple of incidents have been a good reminder that we're not the only people on here and our attitudes are not the only ones that exist—and that we have to choose our words carefully when words are all we've got to convey our meaning.

[Ameraka]

Yes, you don't want to alienate people to the point that they think their thoughts aren't valid and will be shot down, and perhaps leave the Soda Shop altogether--the younger and/or more sensitive souls.

For my part, I rarely take part in debates unless I'm really passionate about something--and especially then, because my whole identity is bound up in something I believe in, I either say something I regret, or avoid the rest of the debate entirely (more often). I'm the opposite of you, Tiger (and of my mom's side of the family)--I grew up in an environment where we really didn't debate things much. Perhaps to my detriment. I'm also an INFP, really strong with the I and F (introverted feeling) so I personalize and internalize these things deeply. So if someone else says their opinion, I am usually really sensitive to their feelings in return and try not to put them down. Harmony and empathy are more important to me than winning. Though there are sometimes exceptions, when I believe strongly about something, and can't let it get attacked. Then it can sometimes descend into anger--but I try not to make ad hominem attacks, because when you attack the person rather than their beliefs (admittedly hard to separate sometimes) you have already lost.

Anyway, considering the discussion, growing up, I never really questioned AIO's view of role playing games, as I hadn't heard anything different from other sources. I thought that role playing games were demonic and to avoid them. The episode was powerful in my opinion--one of the truly scary ones. But hearing from some others, including you on here, I have reconsidered that AIO -gasp- might be in the wrong about this. After all, Mom said that her brothers played Dungeons and Dragons when they were younger, and none of them turned out demonic. Role playing (why would it inherently be?) and fictional magic probably isn't a conduit of the devil. However, there is such a thing as spiritual warfare, and this episode made me aware of that. The unseen battle behind the curtain of the world (rather like This Present Darkness) that does sometimes intrude on the 'real world'--I have heard second-and third-hand stories of demonic possession etc. It would be a mistake to discount that these things exist, and if not in role playing games, AIO did a good job of exploring the creepiness of the evil that exists in the world. Though most of it does occur behind the scenes, and evil most often manifests in people, without necessarily demonic contact--it's inherent in us human beings, from pettiness and 'white lies' to the mass-murdering of tyrants and terrorists. Satan could work through a role playing game if he wanted to--as he could also work through a computer or a church.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I want to clarify that I'm not arguing against spiritual warfare or demonic attacks. But when AIO puts out false information like they did in this episode it undermines their credibility. Also if people who play these games and don't know about spiritual warfare hear about this episode; that all role playing games are demonic then they will be less likely to believe in spiritual warfare in general. Because it will in no way match up with their experiences. I would much rather have had AIO do an episode about spiritual warfare in general rather than pick on D&D specifically, a system created by a Christian that if you look into has clear Christian themes of objective morality written into the game.

[Ameraka]

I would much rather have had AIO do an episode about spiritual warfare in general.

Basically what I want them to do. They've talked about it in other episodes, right? Not as in-depth. It does get scary as we've mentioned. And they might not want to make one again after the reaction they got from this episode.

What made them get inaccurate information to begin with? What sparked them doing this ep in the first place?

[TigerShadow]

What sparked them doing this ep in the first place?

The Dungeons & Dragons craze in the late '80s and early '90s. That game, and then tabletop RPGs in general, started to get really popular, and with them came Moral Guardians who objected to the fantasy elements. Similar things happened when Harry Potter first became popular; the series basically exploded and Pottermania became huge around 2000, and that was also around the time that conservative Christian groups began objecting so strongly to it.

[The Old Judge]

D&D came out during a craze in the late 70s-early 80s known as the Satanic Panic. Many Christians and even old-school Baby Boomer-esque parents were fearful of Satanic influences entering many things, specifically music and recreational entertainment.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Well good thing people aren't irrationally fearful of things anymore....

[HomeschoolCowgirl]

Well good thing people aren't irrationally fearful of things anymore....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

[Blitz]

Well good thing people aren't irrationally fearful of things anymore....

Ha, put my brother and a cockroach in a room.

[Mandy]

D&D came out during a craze in the late 70s-early 80s known as the Satanic Panic. Many Christians and even old-school Baby Boomer-esque parents were fearful of Satanic influences entering many things, specifically music and recreational entertainment.

Its good to be to be cautious and careful about those things. Its better to be too careful than too careless.