Why pray? (Calvinism vs. Arminanism)

[Aaron Wiley]

What do you guys think? Why do we pray? Obviously I don't entirely agree with this video, but I think it presents some good arguments. I have a feeling this is ultimately going to become a discussion about free will and God's sovereignty. I have some serious questions about this issue, and I'd love to hear what you guys think on the topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkTpqT5n9ok

[SparkyHappyGiraffe]

I personally think we pray to get closer to God and to stay close to him.

[Striped Leopard]

I think we pray because God tells us to. God ordains everything that comes to pass--but here's the important thing: He also ordains the means by which He accomplishes everything that happens. He ordains both the ends and the means to the ends. Therefore, He may have ordained that someone will get a job that they wanted, but He ordained that He would do that through their prayer that they would get a job. Does that make sense?

[Aaron Wiley]

@Christian, so basically, it's really up to that person whether or not they want God to interfere, because the only way God's going to intervene in that situation is if that person prays. (Also, did you watch the video? that's really what I wanted to discuss)

[Striped Leopard]

No, that's not what I said. I said that, at times, God has chosen that He will act as a result of a person's prayer. He ordained both what He would do and how/why He would do it--through the person's prayer. That doesn't happen in every case. Oftentimes God acts apart from people's prayers, as well as contrary to people's prayers. We do not in any way control the work of God.

No, I have not watched the video yet. But I will go do that now, since you so desire.

-- Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:12 pm --

Okay, I watched the video. It was...interesting. I'm not particularly fond of humans portraying God, but, that point aside, I didn't think the point was very clear. I really couldn't tell whether it was supposed to be satiric or didactic, or merely entertaining. And it didn't help that "God" didn't give an answer at the end.

Whatever the case, I believe God is absolutely sovereign over everything. He either directly caused the flat tire for His own glory and for the believer's good, or He allowed it for the same reason. There is nothing not under His control. But He still commands us to pray. And He gives us examples in His Word of times when He intervened because of peoples' prayers. He ordains the ends and the means to the ends, plain and simple.

[Aaron Wiley]

No, that's not what I said.

Correct, that's what I said.

I said that, at times, God has chosen that He will act as a result of a person's prayer. He ordained both what He would do and how/why He would do it--through the person's prayer. That doesn't happen in every case. Oftentimes God acts apart from people's prayers, as well as contrary to people's prayers. We do not in any way control the work of God.

And, where do you get the idea that we don't in any way control the work of God? If that's true, then I see no reason for making prayer "requests" at all. I think Our prayer does at some points control the level at which God decides to intervene. For example, with Abraham and Lot, when God said he wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham reasoned with him in conversation. God didn't just say "Yo, Abe, this is my plan, you can't make a dent even if you try", he listened to Abraham's plea, and changed his mind. God actually changes his mind more than once in the Bible, surprisingly, which leads me to believe that we (hypothetically speaking) can even effect God's decision making. Sure, God may have known that Abraham would make that argument and just skipped it altogether because it was part of his plan, But he didn't. That's the big point I'm trying to make.

Whatever the case, I believe God is absolutely sovereign over everything. He either directly caused the flat tire for His own glory and for the believer's good, or He allowed it for the same reason. There is nothing not under His control. But He still commands us to pray. And He gives us examples in His Word of times when He intervened because of peoples' prayers. He ordains the ends and the means to the ends, plain and simple.

I, don't believe that way. I think God made the world to work a bit more like a computer program. he's not just sitting there controlling every little thing that happens, I think he's a bit more passive than that.

When you write a computer program, you don't always decide all of the events that are going to take place, you just program in the various possible events that you're going to allow to happen, but after you press "run program" the variables within the program make the ultimate choices of what's going to happen. Now, of course, you can also always pause the program when you want to and make changes that go against the original code, but generally, that's not needed if it's a well written program.

I think that God doesn't always choose to intervene, but often times, we can ask him to make changes even if he didn't program them into the original code. That doesn't mean he's definitely going to make those changes. God does answer prayers, but he doesn't always answer "yes".

I believe that God gives man the ability to ask him to intervene more than he would have, and thus, affect his actions. But that doesn't mean the decision is mans. I think it works the same way that accepting a belief in Christ works. Think of it as a prayer from God to us. He sends us the request, saying "Believe in my son! He'll save you from yourself!" but it's really up to us to decide to accept that gift. We get the power in that situation. When we pray to God, we ask him to do something, but the ultimate power is his to say "yes" or "no".

[Striped Leopard]

And, where do you get the idea that we don't in any way control the work of God? If that's true, then I see no reason for making prayer "requests" at all. I think Our prayer does at some points control the level at which God decides to intervene. For example, with Abraham and Lot, when God said he wanted to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but Abraham reasoned with him in conversation. God didn't just say "Yo, Abe, this is my plan, you can't make a dent even if you try", he listened to Abraham's plea, and changed his mind. God actually changes his mind more than once in the Bible, surprisingly, which leads me to believe that we (hypothetically speaking) can even effect God's decision making. Sure, God may have known that Abraham would make that argument and just skipped it altogether because it was part of his plan, But he didn't. That's the big point I'm trying to make.

God does not ever "change His mind" in the way we think of changing your mind. He is immutable--He does not change. No one can thwart His plans. Everything that ever happens is a result of His predestinating will. God's nature is such that He will relent from sending calamity if it will go against His justice. In many instances in the Bible, God says that if a people repent of their sins, He will not bring the destruction. Here, Abraham asked God if He would relent from sending the destruction if there were a certain number of righteous ones in the cities. God said He would, being consistent with His nature. He didn't change at all. And, in the end, there were not enough righteous people in the land, so He destroyed the cities. All of this, including His conversation with Abraham, was foreordained to take place, and He knew the outcome.

I think that God doesn't always choose to intervene, but often times, we can ask him to make changes even if he didn't program them into the original code. That doesn't mean he's definitely going to make those changes. God does answer prayers, but he doesn't always answer "yes".

I totally disagree. :} Everything that happens is in God's "original code." Humans have no say in what happens. "Our God is in the heavens, and He does whatever He pleases." "No one can thwart His will." Verses like that tell me that He will never change what He planned. His will is part of His nature. He cannot change. Therefore His will cannot change. There is nothing that can happen that He did not foresee happening, so there is no way that He would need to change His plan.

I believe that God gives man the ability to ask him to intervene more than he would have, and thus, affect his actions. But that doesn't mean the decision is mans. I think it works the same way that accepting a belief in Christ works. Think of it as a prayer from God to us. He sends us the request, saying "Believe in my son! He'll save you from yourself!" but it's really up to us to decide to accept that gift. We get the power in that situation. When we pray to God, we ask him to do something, but the ultimate power is his to say "yes" or "no".

See, you and I have a totally different view of salvation--which is, I think, why we can't agree on this issue. God does not plead with us to "accept" His Son. He offers Christ to everyone. But the problem is, by our nature, we cannot trust Him. We can do nothing good without His Holy Spirit. Our hearts are dead and wicked. Therefore, we need a heart change before we can believe on Christ. The Holy Spirit changes our hearts, and then we can repent and believe. We have no power. We are "dead in trespasses and sins." When was the last time you saw a dead person with power to do anything? We have no choice in our human birth, and in the same way (as Jesus points out in John 3), we have no choice in our spiritual rebirth. God does the saving. We are powerless in the equation.

And therefore, it's the same way with prayer. God does everything by His own will, for His own reasons. We have no say in the matter, except where He has foreordained that He will do something because of our prayers. But it wasn't like He was up in heaven, minding His own business, and suddenly He hears a prayer and is like, "Oh! That guy needs help! I guess I didn't include help for Him in my perfect will. I must go down there and intervene!" No, He has everything planned out. We are merely instruments in His hand. And why should we expect anything else from Him? Until we are saved, we are rebellious enemies of His--children of the devil! We are unable to go anything good, and thus we have offended Him greatly. We have no right to believe that we have the right to "free will." The only free will we have is the freedom to act according to our natures. And our natures are only sinful, so we only sin. Thus God is perfectly just in not allowing us to have any say in what goes on in our lives.

I assume you totally disagree with all of that.

[Aaron Wiley]

I assume you totally disagree with all of that.

Yes, quite. haha.
I guess what you're saying here, which makes it hard for me to agree with you, as that you don't believe in free will. To me, that doesn't really sound biblical. If we don't have free will, God would have no reason for creating us, as we do not even have the ability to love him. Love isn't love unless it's a choice.

I should ask, are you a Calvinist by any chance?

[Striped Leopard]

What's your definition of Calvinist? I'm just telling you what the Bible says.

And where do you get this idea that love isn't love unless it's a choice? Chapter and verse, please. God created us to glorify His Name. We sinned against Him. His just consequence for our sin is that we are all born with a nature that is totally unable and unwilling to love Him. Therefore, He must change our hearts so that we can and want to love Him. Even if your statement was true, it means that love is never possible for man. Either we remain in our sins and are never able to love God, or we are changed by God so that we can love Him, and then it wasn't a result of our will.

Actually, though, it is a result of our own will. When we are saved, God changes our wills so that we will want and choose to love Him. So, in that sense, we are loving Him of our own choice. We can choose to love Him as Christians, and we can also choose not to love Him.

[Aaron Wiley]

But ultimately, but your definitions, Man has no choice then, only if God first chose him can he choose, and when God chooses him, God changes his will anyway and "makes" him want to choose the right thing. That doesn't seem like free will at all.

Warning, for younger users: The next paragraph discusses subject matters that may be a little over your head, so only read on if you're at least 13.

As for why love isn't love unless it's a choice: Think about the relationship between a man a woman, if the man forces the woman to love him, she isn't loving him, she's following orders. Just think about prostitution for a moment. A woman in that situation isn't "loving" a man, she's only "making love" to make money. When a man and a woman get married, they choose each other, it's a mutual thing, which is what makes it beautiful. It's not the man or the woman's decision, it's a contract they enter into together. That's love.

But basically, you believe in complete sovereignty of God, which I believe in to, I just don't believe he interferes half as much as you do.

[Striped Leopard]

"You did not choose Me; I chose you" "You whom God chose before the foundation of the world" "Those whom God foreloved, He also predestined...and those He predestined He also called..." How can you say God did not chose us? He has to "make" us do the right thing, otherwise we won't do it! You seem to be missing the major point here: Man is totally incapable of any good whatsoever. "The sinful mind does not submit to the will of God, nor can it do so." God must intervene, or no one would "choose" Him! We cannot choose/accept/receive/believe on our own! That is why He must take the initiative. If He didn’t, we would all remain unsaved until the day of our death. We are utterly powerless. Thanks be to God that He is all-powerful.

In response to your example, I will give you a different example. Say a man loves a woman. But she is totally unable to love him back. In fact, she is his enemy, a rebellious wicked woman. But, for whatever reason, he still loves her. But she cannot love him; it is against her very nature. If then, somehow, he changes her heart and desires, so that she does love him, is it not real love? If she is truly choosing to love him and adore him, is it nullified merely because he took the initiative in giving her the ability to love him?

If you believed in the absolute sovereignty of God, you could not believe in the absolute free will of man. The two do not and cannot co-exist. Either God controls absolutely everything (absolute sovereignty), or He doesn’t. He foreordains all things—both the good and the bad. There is nothing outside of His perfect will. Even the murder of Christ, the mistreatment of God the Son by filthy human hands, the worst sin in the history of humanity, was an act according to the will and determination of God, according to Acts 2. Yes, God even predestines sin—not that He causes it, but He ordains it indirectly by allowing it and not stopping it. He causes the good and the bad. That is the absolute sovereignty of God; if you don’t believe that, then don’t call it “absolute.”

Oh, by the way, you didn't answer me about Calvinism? What is this word you speak of?

[Aaron Wiley]

"You did not choose Me; I chose you" "You whom God chose before the foundation of the world" "Those whom God foreloved, He also predestined...and those He predestined He also called..." How can you say God did not chose us? He has to "make" us do the right thing, otherwise we won't do it! You seem to be missing the major point here: Man is totally incapable of any good whatsoever. "The sinful mind does not submit to the will of God, nor can it do so." God must intervene, or no one would "choose" Him! We cannot choose/accept/receive/believe on our own! That is why He must take the initiative. If He didn’t, we would all remain unsaved until the day of our death. We are utterly powerless. Thanks be to God that He is all-powerful.

Maybe I misspoke, or maybe you misread, but I did not say God didn't choose us, I simply said that we also chose him, just like in my example, it's not just the man nor just the woman who does the chooses, it's a mutual decision. God takes the initiative, gives us the ability to love him, but then, it's no longer up to him, That's when we make the decision. God set everything into motion, but I doesn't baby everything along altering it's every move to fit his plan, his plan will be accomplished, but I don't think it's quite as specific as you're making it out to be.

In response to your example, I will give you a different example. Say a man loves a woman. But she is totally unable to love him back. In fact, she is his enemy, a rebellious wicked woman. But, for whatever reason, he still loves her. But she cannot love him; it is against her very nature. If then, somehow, he changes her heart and desires, so that she does love him, is it not real love? If she is truly choosing to love him and adore him, is it nullified merely because he took the initiative in giving her the ability to love him?

In response to your response, let's just skip the entire first part of that, God has given us all the ability to choose him, but after he's given us that ability it's still up to our free will to choose, or not choose him. If God simply decides certain people are going to accept him, and denies other people, I can't see that as just in the least bit. Perhaps that is the case, but that just seems a little too hard to comprehend.

If you believed in the absolute sovereignty of God, you could not believe in the absolute free will of man. The two do not and cannot co-exist. Either God controls absolutely everything (absolute sovereignty), or He doesn’t.

Well, I think technically they can. God can be sovereign over our decisions, having the ability to interfere, but he's simply chosen not to, which is what free will is. The essence of power isn't in the interfering itself, it's in the ability.

Oh, by the way, you didn't answer me about Calvinism? What is this word you speak of?

The five points of Calvinism, as displayed by Wikipedia

"Total depravity:" This doctrine, also called "total inability," asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[10] This doctrine is derived from Augustine's explanation of Original Sin.
"Unconditional election:" This doctrine asserts that God has chosen from eternity those whom he will bring to himself not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people; rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone. God has chosen from eternity to extend mercy to those he has chosen and to withhold mercy from those not chosen. Those chosen receive salvation through Christ alone. Those not chosen receive the just wrath that is warranted for their sins against God[11]
"Limited atonement:" Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", this doctrine asserts that Jesus's substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its purpose and in what it accomplished. This implies that only the sins of the elect were atoned for by Jesus's death. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power, but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.[12] The doctrine is driven by the Calvinistic concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and their understanding of the nature of the atonement.
"Irresistible grace:" This doctrine, also called "efficacious grace", asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved. The doctrine holds that this purposeful influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit, "graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ."[13]
"Perseverance of the saints:" Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints (the word "saints" is used to refer to all who are set apart by God, and not of those who are exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven). The doctrine asserts that since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.[14]

Read the full article here

[Striped Leopard]

Maybe I misspoke, or maybe you misread, but I did not say God didn't choose us, I simply said that we also chose him, just like in my example, it's not just the man nor just the woman who does the chooses, it's a mutual decision. God takes the initiative, gives us the ability to love him, but then, it's no longer up to him, That's when we make the decision. God set everything into motion, but I doesn't baby everything along altering it's every move to fit his plan, his plan will be accomplished, but I don't think it's quite as specific as you're making it out to be.

But...we don't choose him, according to that verse I gave. Where do you get the idea that God gives everyone the ability to love Him? As I've said multiple times now, Romans tells us that man can do no good, cannot submit to God's will. Wouldn't that include loving Him? That's what's so amazing about God's grace! He loved us and saved us, even when we couldn't--wouldn't--love Him. It's not our decision, because if it was, we would always choose to reject God. We need His Holy Spirit and His grace to change us.

In response to your response, let's just skip the entire first part of that, God has given us all the ability to choose him, but after he's given us that ability it's still up to our free will to choose, or not choose him. If God simply decides certain people are going to accept him, and denies other people, I can't see that as just in the least bit. Perhaps that is the case, but that just seems a little too hard to comprehend.

Well, it is the case. God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will harden whom I will harden." We are His enemies, and He is our Creator, Whom we have rejected. He has every right to choose some and to pass over others. The thing that should surprise us is not that He does not have mercy on unbelievers, but that He is merciful to believers! We all deserve to go to Hell, to be passed over by Him. But He chooses to save some of us! And it's all by grace, not by anything that we do--not even by our choosing/accepting Him.

Well, I think technically they can. God can be sovereign over our decisions, having the ability to interfere, but he's simply chosen not to, which is what free will is. The essence of power isn't in the interfering itself, it's in the ability.

Sovereignty is not merely the ability to interfere, but involvement in every thing that happens. Sovereignty is not about power. It's about involvement. There is nowhere in Scripture that implies that we have free will. I don't know why you hold to that so strongly.

Wow! Wikipedia is very accurate for once! I agree with everything it described in those 5 points. I have to admit, I knew what you meant when you called me a Calvinist; I just wanted you to give me what your idea of a Calvinist is, so I could see what caricatures you might be operating off of. But it seems that you have a good idea of what Calvinism is.

[Aaron Wiley]

Unfortunately, the argument you're holding so tightly to doesn't lead to a closer relationship with God, but a total rejection of responsibility for the actions of myself, and everyone else on the planet. If none of us have free will, we're all merely robots, again, with no real ability to Love God. If your argument is valid, than I should hypothetically be "allowed" to go off and party, and basically do whatever pleases me because it isn't really up to me what I do anyway. I'm destined to go to heaven, or destined to go to hell, what difference can my actions make? According to you, none.

I believe the main point you were making, though, is that we're not physically able to accept Christ's gift of salvation until he calls us and gives us that ability. I believe that as well. As you've said many times, and according to the Bible, man can do no good on his own. I simply believe that God "chooses" everyone. He calls us all, and gives us that ability to also choose him.

Throughout the Bible, humans aren't portrayed as mindless zombies that only do what God tells them to do, they are given many choices by God. You say there is "nowhere in scripture that implies free will", then I believe we must be reading an entirely different book. The whole of the Bible assumes that we have free will. If you look through Kings and Chronicles for example, you'll see many examples of Kings rejecting the Lord and hardening their hearts against him. In all of these situations, it doesn't say "God turned their hearts away from him", it says that they refused to turn to God, it was their choice, not his.

- Solomon, "his heart had turned away from the Lord…” (1 Kings 11:6, 9)
- King Rehoboam “did evil because he had not set his heart on seeking the Lord” (2 Chron. 12:14)
- Zedekiah “did evil in the eyes of the Lord” and “did not humble himself before Jeremiah the prophet” was because he became “stiff-necked and hardened his heart and would not turn to the Lord…” (2 Chron. 36:12–13)

There are also examples in the Bible of people rejecting God's plan for them, like the Pharisees did in Luke, or Israel choosing to go against God's plan in Isaiah.

- “by refusing to be baptized by [John], the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves” (Luke 7:30)
- “Oh, rebellious children…who carry out a plan, but not mine; who make an alliance, but against my will, adding sin to sin” (Is. 30:1).

All through the Bible, it seems to be quite clear that humans have the ability to directly work against God's plan for them. We aren't little brainless toys God is playing with on his bedroom floor for his amusement, we're people whom God created to Love him. That love is not possible unless we have a choice.

Sovereignty is not merely the ability to interfere, but involvement in every thing that happens. Sovereignty is not about power. It's about involvement. There is nowhere in Scripture that implies that we have free will. I don't know why you hold to that so strongly.

If this is what you believe sovereignty is, I do not believe God is sovereign.

[Striped Leopard]

You seem to forget that I've given you Scripture for almost all of my points. You keep acting as if this is all my personal point of view, and that it has no root in Scripture. Thank you for giving me some Scriptures this time. I will try to work through whatever you give me, since you're so sure that what you believe is taught by Scripture.

Unfortunately, the argument you're holding so tightly to doesn't lead to a closer relationship with God, but a total rejection of responsibility for the actions of myself, and everyone else on the planet. If none of us have free will, we're all merely robots, again, with no real ability to Love God. If your argument is valid, than I should hypothetically be "allowed" to go off and party, and basically do whatever pleases me because it isn't really up to me what I do anyway. I'm destined to go to heaven, or destined to go to hell, what difference can my actions make? According to you, none.

Our sinful actions are not controlled by God. They are allowed by God. Every person alive, before they are saved, "goes off and parties," according to the terms you gave. That's what we all do by nature, with no regard for God or His law. The only thing that removes us from that is His amazing grace. Again, I say, you don't know whether you are destined for heaven or destined to hell. The gospel call to repentance goes out to all people, whether they are elect or reprobate. You don't know your eternal destination, so your job is to obey the gospel and repent. And, in fact, if you truly do so, it is proof that the Holy Spirit was working in your heart. That's what difference your actions can make.

I believe the main point you were making, though, is that we're not physically able to accept Christ's gift of salvation until he calls us and gives us that ability. I believe that as well. As you've said many times, and according to the Bible, man can do no good on his own. I simply believe that God "chooses" everyone. He calls us all, and gives us that ability to also choose him.

Again, you give no Scripture to back this up. The very word "elect" implies a choice of one person/group out of many people/groups. You can't say that God chose everyone. Yes, "God calls all men everywhere to repent." You are correct there. But the general call is not effectual to change hearts. Otherwise all would be saved. Only the effectual call can change the heart--similar to Jesus' call to Lazarus to come out of his tomb. His words gave Lazarus life and the ability to walk out of the grave. Romans 8 says that "those whom He called He also justified, those whom He justified He also glorified." If all are called in that way, then all are saved and glorified. Obviously that isn't the case! There must be two different types of calls. Only the elect are called in such a way that they come to salvation.

Throughout the Bible, humans aren't portrayed as mindless zombies that only do what God tells them to do, they are given many choices by God. You say there is "nowhere in scripture that implies free will", then I believe we must be reading an entirely different book. The whole of the Bible assumes that we have free will. If you look through Kings and Chronicles for example, you'll see many examples of Kings rejecting the Lord and hardening their hearts against him. In all of these situations, it doesn't say "God turned their hearts away from him", it says that they refused to turn to God, it was their choice, not his.

Just because God gives people choices doesn't mean that they are able to choose the good. God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go, and then He turned around and hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he wouldn't let them go! You say there aren't any examples in Scripture of God hardening people's hearts. Check these out:

Exodus 9:12="But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses."
Exodus 10:1="Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,"
Exodus 10:20="But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go."
Exodus 10:27="But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go."
Exodus 11:10="So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land."
Exodus 14:8="And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness."

And, just in case you were thinking that Pharaoh was the only one:

Deuteronomy 2:30="“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day."
Isaiah 63:17="O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants’ sake, The tribes of Your inheritance."

That last example says that God made the Israelites stray from His ways! Yes, there are times that the Bible describes the hardening of hearts as an act of man--and it always is. But it is also a direct act of God in that He withholds His restraining grace from them, so that they are evil to their full potential.

There are also examples in the Bible of people rejecting God's plan for them, like the Pharisees did in Luke, or Israel choosing to go against God's plan in Isaiah.
- “by refusing to be baptized by [John], the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves” (Luke 7:30)
- “Oh, rebellious children…who carry out a plan, but not mine; who make an alliance, but against my will, adding sin to sin” (Is. 30:1).

All through the Bible, it seems to be quite clear that humans have the ability to directly work against God's plan for them. We aren't little brainless toys God is playing with on his bedroom floor for his amusement, we're people whom God created to Love him. That love is not possible unless we have a choice.

Romans 9:19 says that no one resists God's will. And then these verses say that people can resist God's will. Is there a contradiction? No, we know there are no contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, as in the case of the general and effectual calls, we must conclude that there are two different wills of God: His secret will (what always happens, no matter what) and His revealed will (what He always wants us to do, as expressed in Scripture). When people resist God's will, they are disobeying His precepts, which are revealed to us in the Bible.

You are correct; God created us to glorify and enjoy Him. But we cannot do that by nature. We had a choice in the matter, but we rejected God in the garden, so we now have no ability to love God--unless He mercifully changes our hearts so that we can! That is what is so wonderful about the gospel! We already lost our chance, because in Eden we chose not to love God. But in His love toward us, He gives us the ability to love Him again!

If this is what you believe sovereignty is, I do not believe God is sovereign.

Then, I'm afraid you have a problem with the God Who is described in Scripture.

[Doll]

Just because God gives people choices doesn't mean that they are able to choose the good. God commanded Pharaoh to let His people go, and then He turned around and hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he wouldn't let them go! You say there aren't any examples in Scripture of God hardening people's hearts. Check these out:

Exodus 9:12="But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh; and he did not heed them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses."
Exodus 10:1="Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,"
Exodus 10:20="But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go."
Exodus 10:27="But the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go."
Exodus 11:10="So Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh; and the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not let the children of Israel go out of his land."
Exodus 14:8="And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued the children of Israel; and the children of Israel went out with boldness."

And, just in case you were thinking that Pharaoh was the only one:

Deuteronomy 2:30="“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass through, for the LORD your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into your hand, as it is this day."
Isaiah 63:17="O LORD, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants’ sake, The tribes of Your inheritance."

If I may interject a little, I believe that this is a different instance than what Aaron is talking about. It says specifically in
Exodus 10:1="Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,"
Meaning, that he hardened Pharaoh's heart to show him who He was. He basically did it to bring Him glory.

[Aaron Wiley]

If this is what you believe sovereignty is, I do not believe God is sovereign.

Then, I'm afraid you have a problem with the God Who is described in Scripture.

The God described by certain scriptures exaggerated beyond their intended purpose.
God is both just and graceful, loving and "hateful", absolutely sovereign, yet also, gives us the gift of free will. There is scripture to back up both sides, which is what makes God such a great mystery. By our own human minds, free will and sovereignty cannot co-exist, but obviously according to the Bible, they can. I suppose this is one of the things we must just "take by faith". I've read through all of your posts very carefully, and payed close attention to the scripture used in them, but I can't say I've read anything incredibly convincing to make me believe that God destroys our will in order to "make" us love him, which, again, wouldn't be love at all.

We can make God look whatever we want by bending and taking scripture out of context, but in the end, God isn't confined to was makes sense by our standards. Being able to be Just and Graceful at the same time, doesn't make any sense either, but we both seem to believe in that. God is a God of balance, and absolutes. These are all teachings from the Bible, but if you take any teaching out of balance, you end up disfiguring the true image of God.

The reason I wasn't using scripture to back up my "love" argument was because I wasn't arguing with you about a biblical truth, only a logical definition of a word used in scripture. The Bible may be the ultimate source of truth, but that doesn't mean it contains every ounce of that exists, it simply means that everything it contains is true.

[Striped Leopard]

The God described by certain scriptures exaggerated beyond their intended purpose. God is both just and graceful, loving and "hateful", absolutely sovereign, yet also, gives us the gift of free will. There is scripture to back up both sides, which is what makes God such a great mystery. By our own human minds, free will and sovereignty cannot co-exist, but obviously according to the Bible, they can. I suppose this is one of the things we must just "take by faith". I've read through all of your posts very carefully, and payed close attention to the scripture used in them, but I can't say I've read anything incredibly convincing to make me believe that God destroys our will in order to "make" us love him, which, again, wouldn't be love at all.

First of all, you still have shown me no clear-cut evidence from Scripture that says that we have a free will, or that all men have the ability to love/choose or reject God. And, by the way, I never said that God destroys our free will. We destroyed our free will when we sinned in Adam. That was the only time in history that we had the choice to do good or evil. We choose evil, and God decided that the just punishment would be that all men are born with a nature that renders them incapable of doing good. And again, God doesn't make us love Him. He changes our hearts so that we can want to love Him for the first time. It is true love, because after our hearts have been changed, we still are able to not truly love Him at times; we have the choice. It's just that now we are able to love Him, which we could not do beforehand.

We can make God look whatever we want by bending and taking scripture out of context, but in the end, God isn't confined to was makes sense by our standards. Being able to be Just and Graceful at the same time, doesn't make any sense either, but we both seem to believe in that. God is a God of balance, and absolutes. These are all teachings from the Bible, but if you take any teaching out of balance, you end up disfiguring the true image of God.

Please don't imply that I twisted Scripture or took it out of context, without providing any examples of that. No, God isn't confined to what makes sense to us, but He has revealed enough about Himself in His Word that we can understand many things about Him--one of which is His absolute sovereignty, even over human activity.

[Aaron Wiley]

If we have no free will, then none of us are responsible for our actions, the only one to blame is Adam, and thus, he should be the only one to be sent to Hell. Of course, though, we do have choice in the matter. The Bible assumes this at all times, because if we didn't, no instruction stated in the Bible would be necessary, because we don't even have the ability to choose it anyway.

If we have no free will, the Bible is useless. Also, our worship is meaningless, since it isn't really us worshiping God, it's just him "making" us do it. So, God becomes the figure of an incredibly proud puppeteer, who creates this sort of "puppet" simply yo worship himself with his own hands. Don't get me wrong, God deserves all the glory of the universe, but the God that worships himself is not the God described by scripture.

If free will doesn't exist, the Prophet Joshua clearly wasn't hearing from God when he gave this message, since it in a very literal sense asks Israel to choose if they are going to follow or turn from God. “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

If we are predestined either way to go to Heaven or Hell, we have no reason to follow any of God's commands, nor worship or glorify him, because that makes no difference, it's in no way up to us to decide if we'll go to Heaven or Hell. A just God would not simply choose a few people he wants to live, and send the rest of his creation to eternal [censored] because their distant ancestor make one mistake. Does it not say in the ever so popular John 3:16 that "God so loved the WORLD that he gave his son, that whosoever might believe in him should not parish bu have everlasting life". It does not, in fact say, that "God loved a few people in the world enough to send his son to die for only them".

Through one man sin entered the world to consume all, but through one man, also, the bondage of sin was broken over every man, giving him the ability once again to choose life or death. The Old Testament was a time period of faith that this man would come, and save them from their sins, and the New Testament (now) is the faith that that man did come, and we are no longer bound to the sin we would be had this bondage relied only on man's actions.

A few more Bible verses implying that Man has a choice -

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.” (Deuteronomy 30:19)
“Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.” (Proverbs 3:31)
“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” (James 4:17) (If we had no choice, then knowing to do good would necessarily result in doing good.)

(Source for verses - http://minuteswithmessiah.tripod.com/qu ... l.html)

[Nelson S.]

Debating is fun, isn't it?