Is man basically good, or basically evil?

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SirWhit
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What do you mean by "we actually only give account of ourselves?"
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How does Revelations three twenty support you?

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

How could this be misconstrued as evidence for man being evil?

No, I have not. Is truth reliant on Biblical evidence? Can something not exist without the Bible? This is your thesis we are exploring, not mine. It is up to you to prove something, not me.

Anyhow, Jehosophat put forth some evidence:
"'Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41. This shows that our spirit is good and wants the good but our flesh, causes us to do all the bad things we do. Our spirit, which is are basic part, is good."
Blitz wrote:Vrs 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin.
Read the whole chapter and you will see that Paul is not talking about Christians but rather unbelievers
Read it, thank you very much.

Doesn't your own quotations condemn your case? According to you, Paul is claiming Gentiles and Jews can only sin and do no good. But if so, he's saying the same of Christians, as we are, "in no wise" better than they.
Blitz wrote:Now the issue of the law. We as Christians aren't even judged by the law. We don't even go to the White Throne judgement. We actually only give account of ourselves.
This is a new Protestant notion to me. I'm unsure what you even mean.

But it doesn't matter in this debate. Whatever happens to us after we are dead, at the moment, we are quite alive.
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Blitz
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Revelations 3:20 was about Jesus Christ entering your heart not the main topic.
Truth relating to Christianity must be based on the Bible or you destroy your own argument. Because I at least have verse that can indicate man is evil. On the other hand, you do not. Your argument against my argument is that they should not be interpreted as I interpret them which is a weak stand.
No at that point he was talking about the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles. Not about Christians. Nothing he said in chapter 3 for the most part was on Christians.
They were Jews who were a special case. Jews were capable of pleasing God. Otherwise we would never see David etc in Heaven. The sacrifices were a temporary precursor to Jesus enabling them to please God.

WE. Christians do not face judgment in heaven for wrong doing or we would be heading to hell. On the other hand, we do give account of what we did for God.
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Blitz wrote:Revelations 3:20 was about Jesus Christ entering your heart not the main topic..
It doesn't seem to be. Where's the connection? Besides, Revelation is the most broadly interpreted book in the Bible, even among Catholics. But we must end this discussion, I shall not reply to any answers you may make to my remarks here. You of course can start a thread on this topic, if you like.
Blitz wrote:Truth relating to Christianity must be based on the Bible or you destroy your own argument. Because I at least have verse that can indicate man is evil. On the other hand, you do not.
In the first place, while I have not bothered myself to support my case with verses, I did just quote Jehosophat doing so. And now you have ignored the verse. Twice.

Secondly, how can that the truth cannot be found by seeing who can quote the most verses he or she think support their thesis? Especially with little concern as to whether they truly do support the thesis or not.

Again, you are trying to prove a thesis, not me. If you fail to prove your thesis, it would seem it is false.
Blitz wrote:Your argument against my argument is that they should not be interpreted as I interpret them which is a weak stand.
Jiminy Crickets, how is it weak? If your verses do not support your thesis, they do not support your thesis.

Thus far, all the verses every Protestant has put forward to prove the idea that man has an evil nature have been refuted. If they do support the thesis, somebody show how.

If not, then who cares how many verses you misinterpret to support your thesis? Who cares how many false proofs you have? No matter how much nothing you have, is it not still nothing?
Blitz wrote:No at that point he was talking about the difference between the Jews and the Gentiles. Not about Christians. Nothing he said in chapter 3 for the most part was on Christians.
How do you know this?
Last edited by Pound Foolish on Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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SirWhit
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Blitz wrote:WE. Christians do not face judgment in heaven for wrong doing or we would be heading to hell. On the other hand, we do give account of what we did for God.
What do you say about 2 Corinthians 2:15? We are condemned for our actions, but we are saved because of Jesus intervening on our behalf (1 John 2:1-2).
2 Corinthians 2:15 wrote:For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
1 John 2:1-2 wrote:My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
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That even works with what I say. We give account of ourselves. We are not judged but rather our accounting is to see what rewards we get or if we even get any. Again as I said, if we were judged we would be going to hell.
This is my argument against his verse. They were Jews who were a special case. Jews were capable of pleasing God. Otherwise we would never see David etc in Heaven. The sacrifices were a temporary precursor to Jesus enabling them to please God. And did this verse actually state we are basically good? No it rather stated man
Roman 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision?
The whole chapter from the beginning is a discourse on the Jews advantages and disadvantages. He compares the Jews to the Gentiles, and he even say he speaks as a man one of the verse meaning like a non-believer. Did you go on to read the whole chapter?
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Christ judges us. We give an account of our life and then God gives us what we have chosen. All are judged, even those who go to heaven. Judgement doesn't mean punishment.
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Blitz wrote:That even works with what I say. We give account of ourselves. We are not judged but rather our accounting is to see what rewards we get or if we even get any. Again as I said, if we were judged we would be going to hell.
This is my argument against his verse. They were Jews who were a special case. Jews were capable of pleasing God. Otherwise we would never see David etc in Heaven. The sacrifices were a temporary precursor to Jesus enabling them to please God. And did this verse actually state we are basically good? No it rather stated man
Roman 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision?
The whole chapter from the beginning is a discourse on the Jews advantages and disadvantages. He compares the Jews to the Gentiles, and he even say he speaks as a man one of the verse meaning like a non-believer. Did you go on to read the whole chapter?
Oh, OK. Sorry. I misunderstood your view. I do agree with what jehophasat said, though. Judgment does not equal punishment.
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I honestly don't remember if anyone has mentioned this in this debate before, but I was talking to my Sunday School teacher about this today, and:
Mark 10:17-18 wrote:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
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*quietly strolls in*

I think what Jesus meant to say was, "No one is good--except God alone, along with Mary and all of the saints and anyone else who does good things."

*quietly strolls back out*
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Christian A. wrote:*quietly strolls in*

I think what Jesus meant to say was, "No one is good--except God alone, along with Mary and all of the saints and anyone else who does good things."

*quietly strolls back out*
What is "good", then? If it is as Jesus says in this verse, God is the only one who is good, and this, can be the only one who can do good.

If we aren't good, how can we do good?
Isaiah 64:6 wrote:All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
The best, that we can do..what we call good...is still like a filthy rag to God, because only God is perfect, and righteous.

And see, the thing is, Jesus didn't put qualifiers on his statement...he said "No one is good, except God alone." God. Period.
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Sing, if you have anything to add to this debate, add it. But Gratia's verses were erroneously used to support her case. If you think the refutations were wrong, point out how. And it's not a matter of Catholic Bible against Protestant Bible (though your Bibles are in fact historically problematic) but you Protestants misusing your own Bibles.

I'm Sorry, PF. I get busy, and leave and it is hard to explain.... =) any way, PLEASE DO NOT group us all as protestants. I Am NOT a protestant (i have nothing against them tho...) I am an Anabaptist. And Sorry eleventh doc, I said mostly, I did not mean to group you as a Catholic. I think for now, I will just watch from the sidelines, as I have trouble typing what I am thinking...
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Forgiven Sing, don't worry. I am curious though as to your definition of Protestant, I thought that Anabaptist were part of the Protestant movement. I mean yeah Protestant isn't a catch all term and there are obviously different groups within Protestantism, tens of thousands in fact, but I would say Protestant is generally defined as coming from the groups that broke off from the Roman Catholic church. How would you define Protestantism?
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Blitz wrote: Roman 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision?
I see now where you're coming from. My translation doesn't say Jews. Alright though, let's suppose your translation is right (it probably is in this instance, no reason to think not.)

You've still got problems.
Blitz wrote:Roman 3:1
What advantage then hath the Jew? Or what profit is there in circumcision?
For example, in the verse you quoted yourself, he says Jews are no better off than the nonbelievers he describes. I repeat, if he is saying nonbelievers can do no good, he is saying the same of Jews! "For there is no distinction. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (emphasis added)

Ha ha, oh be quiet Christian. Though that was quite amusing. To be clear, though, Saints most definitely do sin.
God's Girl wrote:I honestly don't remember if anyone has mentioned this in this debate before, but I was talking to my Sunday School teacher about this today, and:
Mark 10:17-18 wrote:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
Yay, you're back. Good to be debating with you. However, we did indeed go over that. The filthy rags verse as well. Please feel free to refute my arguments against them, though.
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True. I agree, Jews can do no right unless they actually believe in God with their heart. Chapter two of Romans condemns both the Jews and the Moralist. Paul was mainly in chapter complaining about those who tried to get to Heaven by works. Then finally in chapter three, he concluded with a bang condemning all who don't believe in Christ.
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Pound Foolish wrote:
God's Girl wrote:I honestly don't remember if anyone has mentioned this in this debate before, but I was talking to my Sunday School teacher about this today, and:
Mark 10:17-18 wrote:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone."
Yay, you're back. Good to be debating with you. However, we did indeed go over that. The filthy rags verse as well. Please feel free to refute my arguments against them, though.
Yeup, I see that now.

I actually talked to my pastor today about this as well.
Pound Foolish wrote:To be clear, while Catholics realize that our good works, whether we are Christian or not, cannot be sinful when done with good intent, we do not teach that we go to Heaven or are justified in the sight of God through works. The Council of Trent stated that "nothing which precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification" (Decree on Justification 8 ) 8). In other words, God is pleased with goodness, but that does not mean we ourselves are without a doubt pure or destined for Heaven.
This is a very good point..it's important to note that our works don't get us into heaven, nor do the "good" works of unsaved people get them into heaven. There's only one way.

I think, that there's a level of good..there's the ultimate Good, whom God and only God is, which we can't even begin to imagine how good it is...then, we have our own levels of good, when we think about good, we mean, in the difference of good and bad. What is evil and what is right.

In that sense, unsaved people can do things that are right.

(Sorry if it seems like I'm just rambling. :P)
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I don't getcha, Blitz. Are you saying none of the Jews Paul addressed believed in God? If they did, then according to you, Blitz, then they should not be necessarily condemned to Hell. Yet, Paul says they are no better off than unbelievers. So, again, unless every single Jew there didn't believe in God, then you have to abandon one of your premises: either that Jews can do good... or that nonbelievers can't.

Blondie, that all sounds nice, but what do you mean, precisely? That nonbelievers can do good in a "sense"?
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First three chapters of Romans were addressed to unbelievers not Christians. And I am not getting your question PF.
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Hold it. Was Paul addressing nonbelievers or Jews, according to you? He seems to be either addressing Christians or Jews. If not then why the, "Are we then better off? No, in no wise" verse at all?
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Blitz
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No. Romans is progressive. Almost Paul's testimony. He says we because he is relating in chapter three to unsaved Jews.(mostly directed at the hypocritical Jews). He is referring here to circumcision and the Law. Does it make the Jews better. In no wise. Then in verse 9 he puts them together.
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