Creationism or Evolutionism.

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Eleventh Doctor
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Did you read any of my points? There is no conflict between science and God because Genesis is not a scientific textbook. Yes God created the world but Genesis doesn't get into much beyond that. Anything you attempt to draw out beyond God creating the world is interpretation and your interpretation doesn't line up with how Christians have historically interpreted Genesis.

Also have you actually read Genesis, do you want to explain to me why there are two creation accounts that don't line up?
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I did read your points, I said that Genesis is God's holy word, that is true, you think God doesn't know a thing in history or science? he only created the world! God says that is what happened, then no arguing, the bible is pretty clear about how the earth was created.
and of course I have read Genesis!
There are very few things to interpret, God wrote his word for humans (that means people like you and me ;) ) to read, you don't need to be a guru, or the Pope, or padre Williams, or a rabbi to understand it. It is simple, and true. God created the world 5774 years ago (about, hebrew year of course) in 6 literal days, and there is this thing, called evolution, that the satan is trying to use any way possible to get you to doubt the Bible, it is your duty to read the Bible, believe it, and believe an all powerful God created it in 6 days.

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I think we're dealing with an issue of how the Bible was written. It seem like you believe in the theory that God dictated, as in word for word, Scripture to the writers, am I right? If not please expand on what you believe about the inspiration of Scripture.

Of course God knows about science and history, the question though is did God dictate word for word the Scriptures? If He didn't then it's not really possible for Genesis to be a scientific or historical text since there weren't texts like that when Genesis was written. If God did dictate Genesis as a scientific or historical text then the people reading the book of Genesis at the time wouldn't have understood the book of Genesis since they had never read similar texts before.

I don't believe that Scripture is simply and easy to understand; if that were the case then why are there tens of thousands of different denominations? I also don't believe that belief in a literal 6 day creation is a dogmatic issue. I believe creation of the world by God is dogmatic but beyond that I disagree that Genesis is clear.

Also, where do you get the exact number of 5774 years?
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I believe that the Bible was written in the spirit of God, maybe some of the writers were dictated, but mostly I think not, but because they were written in the spirit of God, he had the power to write his book to us, as 100% real and true.
" If He didn't then it's not really possible for Genesis to be a scientific or historical text since there weren't texts like that when Genesis was written." It doesn't need to be a historical or scientific text, but everything in the bible (the history and science) is all accurate, even if it wasn't written to teach science (I DO believe God wants us to read and learn the earth's history through his word.)
"...the people reading the book of Genesis at the time wouldn't have understood the book of Genesis since they had never read similar texts before. " I believe that the earlier people on earth were a LOT smarter than us now. We may THINK we are smart, we have iPhones, and spaceships, but They built the pyramids, knew how to mummify, built the tower of babel, created batteries (yes, electrical batteries). I believe that God gave Adam and Eve an IQ of at least 500 or 1000 (100 is average), they came straight from God in factory settings! Slowly the IQ and life span lowered after the fall and the flood for many reasons, so they were smart enough to read and WRITE Genesis (I believe Moses wrote it). So until then, the stories were passed from father to son, about how grandpa Noah was saved. another thing is that I read the bible in hebrew, and that is the same hebrew (not altered) that they wrote it in, and it is un-understandable now, because the language has changed, but back then, that was normal writing, anyone would have understood it.
"I don't believe that Scripture is simply and easy to understand; if that were the case then why are there tens of thousands of different denominations?" They are some parts that are hard to understand, and they do cause confusion, but the story of Genesis, the creation (the subject of the topic FYI ) is not that debatable if you read it. Most of the denominations were not started because someone thought that genesis was dictated, and another not, Why do you ask me people don't get along? It is Satan trying his hardest to destroy God's church, trying to stop others from being saved and stop God's plan, he don't wanna be in hell.
If you don't believe that God created the world in 6 literal days, you are gonna be in trouble, and your faith will be jeopardized, because the bible and Evolution don't go together, you will be tested, and you will be tempted, and God's grace is all that is putting you in heaven, God wants your heart, why not believe that all he said is true. Man has not been around since the beginning, Man lies, Man makes mistakes, and is not infinitely wise, God on the other hand, Never makes mistakes, Can't lie, Has been around awhile, Is Super wise, And asks you to trust him.
the number 5774 is from the hebrew (jewish) calendar, its not year 2013 according to it, they count from the creation of the earth (+/- 70 years)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_calendar

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Eleventh Doctor
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So the Bible wasn't written to teach us science but it can teach us science, is essentially what you argument boils down to right?

Where do you get this idea that Adam and Eve were 5 or 10 times smarter than us today? Also it wouldn't have mattered how smart they were if the concept of a scientific text didn't exist, as you actually say it was stories passed down from generation to generation, that is not a scientific text.

Also you're not reading it in the original Hebrew, study how your translation was developed. We don't have the original Hebrew text, we have a translation several times removed from the original. So no, the language is not unchanged and the argument is not about the language change but about what type of text used. The concept of scientific text simply didn't exist, that was not a style of writing that existed yet.

Read the Early Church and look at the discussions they had about Genesis, it wasn't as clear cut as you make it out.

Please don't tell me my faith is going to be jeopardized by not believing in a literal six days. I do believe that God created the world, the universe, and everything in it out of nothing. That is what Genesis tells us, everything else is not clear. I'm really insulted by you saying I don't trust God.

I just don't think the calendar is that accurate, not when scientific evidence points to the earth being so much older. And before you insult my faith again please do be aware that this calendar is not Scripture so please discuss the merits of it from a scientific basis not claiming that it is divinely inspired.
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NateVONgreat
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11th wrote: So the Bible wasn't written to teach us science but it can teach us science, is essentially what you argument boils down to right?
I am not arguing, I am answering your claims according to what I believe, I have no point to mine.
11th wrote:Where do you get this idea that Adam and Eve were 5 or 10 times smarter than us today?

I get it from Adam and Eve being created into a perfect world with amazing natural conditions by an amazing love. By 2nd generation they were able to make instruments and tools. Nowdays each person is pretty dumb, but altogether we figured out a way to collect all our information together to help develop technology faster, but individually, SAT scores have been dropping at a nice rate and to fix that they keep dumbing the tests. Do you honestly think you are wiser or smarter than Adam and Eve that came programmed straight from God? When we have hundreds of generations of DNA loss and Problems.
11th wrote:Also it wouldn't have mattered how smart they were if the concept of a scientific text didn't exist, as you actually say it was stories passed down from generation to generation, that is not a scientific text.

I said it ISN'T a scientific text! but it is scientifically true (meaning everything in it that might have to do with science is true), and who cares what kind of text! it was just words, and stories, like the bible is now!
11th wrote: Also you're not reading it in the original Hebrew

You bet I am, Jews believe it is not allowed to change the holy word of God. That is a quality I like.
The ONLY changes made to the bible, recorded very carefully, are changing letters to make it "more correct" grammar, with the original at the bottom of the page or in "()" (whatever they are called).
11th wrote:study how your translation was developed

I don't know if you know this, but the old-testament was written in hebrew, only the new-testament is translated.
11th wrote: The concept of scientific text simply didn't exist, that was not a style of writing that existed yet.

The old testament, especially the first 5 books are not written as scientific texts, they are just recordings of what happened, songs, stories (true ones btw), all things anyone could have understood.
11th wrote:
Read the Early Church and look at the discussions they had about Genesis, it wasn't as clear cut as you make it out.

Do you mean a book called "early church" or do you mean like the book of Acts. Jews have always believed the earth to be created by God in 6 days, maybe you mean their talks about Moses and Joseph, but Evolution hadn't been invented yet, no one dreamed of it being more than 10000 years.
11th wrote: Please don't tell me my faith is going to be jeopardized by not believing in a literal six days. I do believe that God created the world, the universe, and everything in it out of nothing. That is what Genesis tells us, everything else is not clear. I'm really insulted by you saying I don't trust God.

I am sorry that I insulted you, mostly I wrote that part for other people who might be reading the post who doesn't believe that (there are a lot of christians that don't sadly). About saying your faith is jeopardized, I meant it might and could be, Most christians today that lose their faith is because of evolution, almost every christian that goes to college will, sadly. I was trying to encourage you to keep you foundations in his word strong, I have seen it, I had friends that walked away because they believed evolution made more sense, so the Bible can't be true. Satan is using this as a weapon, it is dangerous, and important to be on your guard (not you personally 11th, everyone)
11th wrote: I just don't think the calendar is that accurate, not when scientific evidence points to the earth being so much older. And before you insult my faith again please do be aware that this calendar is not Scripture so please discuss the merits of it from a scientific basis not claiming that it is divinely inspired.
Of course it is not super accurate, but you CAN work out the age of the earth using the bible, many people have done it, I have done a rough version, my parents for example went into detail. The bible has a very clear record of who gave birth to who at what age, just add them up, until something historically recorded like Jerusalem captured by Babel, and Voila! Earth is about 6000 years old. If you want me to prove it more to you with science, just watch the video I posted on my earlier post, part 1 is "age of the earth", Evolutionists have done a good job of hiding the age of the earth.

Once again I apologize, I haven't met you and don't really know what you believe so I don't know what does or doesn't offend you.

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Eleventh Doctor
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I don't think SAT scores are a great way of measuring the collective intelligence or wisdom of the world. Unless you can produce Adam and Eve's SAT score. I agree that we as humans are not smarter or wiser than our ancestors but I don't know where you get this idea that they were ten times more intelligent than we are and in any case that doesn't address the issue of the scientific text.

If it wasn't a scientific text then we cannot derive scientific facts from it, that would be like trying to derive scientific facts about Narnia from the Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe. It just doesn't make sense. It is not scientifically true because it does not state scientific facts. It tells a true story of how God created the world out of nothing, it doesn't tell us how He did that or it what way He did that because, as you have said, it is not a scientific text.

Nope, you're wrong. Really, read the history of Bible translations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations The Jewish people did not speak the same exact Hebrew language for thousands of years, they translated Scripture to match the changing venacular. The text you're reading is called the Masoretic Text and was translated between the 7th and 10th century AD. Look up Masoretic Text.

I am aware of that, are you aware that the old Hebrew translations haven't survived and the oldest complete copy of the Old Testament we have is the Septuagint? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

I totally agree that songs and stories were understandable, but one does not get scientific facts if one is not reading a scientific text.

No, I mean the writings of the early Christian Church, read what they wrote about the literal six day creation. Barnabas, the one mentioned in Acts wrote of the days of creation.
The Hebrew text is here followed, the Septuagint reading “sixth” instead of “seventh.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, “The day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years.”
There is not agreement in the early Church about the nature of Creation but in the end it is not a matter of salvation.

Also the Jewish people did not always believe in a literal six day creation, if they did at all actually, can you provide some evidence of that? I have this quote from Philo of Alexandria, a Jewish philosopher at the time of Christ.
And he says that the world was made in six days, not because the Creator stood in need of a length of time (for it is natural that God should do everything at once, not merely by uttering a command, but by even thinking of it); but because the things created required arrangement; and number is akin to arrangement; and, of all numbers, six is, by the laws of nature, the most productive


Well maybe we should stop that by letting people know that Christianity and evolution aren't contradictory, we shouldn't care this much about the issue. It is not an issue of someone's salvation. And if evolution is true that doesn't negate the Bible. Now I don't want to discourage you or say you shouldn't believe in a six day creation, just don't go around doubting the faith of those who don't. This has happened before in the history of the church, St. Augustine back in the 3rd century speaks to this very issue.
It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.
How have scientist hide the age of the earth? They are always trying to get a more accurate age of the earth. And please don't use the genealogies to determine the age of the earth. The Apostles knew that people would become focused on the genealogies and they wrote to avoid them. Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless." 1st Timothy 1:3-4 "As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith."
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Woah, woah, woah. I didn't mean to start a WAR! Oh, and @ Nate, exuuuse me for breathing!
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you are excused ;)
I didn't mean to start a war either, but then again, who does?

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true, true.... oh, and also that exuse me part was actually an AIO quote I couldn't let pass by unused...
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*Yawns* I just would like to add one thing. Micro-Evolution is technically not Evolution but rather mutations which cause the loss of DNA. It is real but incapable of doing evolution unless the first animals were packed full of genes.
And I would just like to say in the words of Ken Ham, "Evening, Morning, Number, day"
And I never would believe in something that is constantly changing. Even if someone does respond to my post I won't answer.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Why are you posting if you aren't going to respond, that's rude.

You do realize that as a Protestant you do believe in something that is constantly changing? I mean it's right there in the name protest from the Reformation as in reforming or changing.

Great Christian scientist throughout time have made advancements in science, it is the height of hubris to think you have everything figured out and will never change.

Also I'm still waiting for Nate to respond to my points.
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11th, so do you belive God created everything over billions of years?
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Eleventh Doctor
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I believe that's a possibility. To me the important thing is that God created the universe out of nothing.

As for the billions of years, I think the earth is closer to that than say 10,000 years.
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Oliver
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ok so if you think it's a possibility then why did you say six days really wasn't because God could have just made it all at once. So if you think He should have just made it all at once then why billions of years to make it?
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Eleventh Doctor
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I think either of those is a possibility. I don't think Genesis is clear about which one it was.
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Oliver
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yes it is clear. like they were saying earlier yom means day. Don't you think you should you read what the Bible says and stop reading into things so much?
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Eleventh Doctor
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I was saying yom doesn't always mean a literal 24 hour day. I am reading what the Bible says, Genesis is not a scientific text. It is not meant to be taken literally, the idea that it is literal is a recent interpretation.
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Refer above to, "Evening, Morning, Number, Day"
Dasi, advisably, don't debate him. He gone over most of these topics a hundred times.
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yeah I know. it's no use he's only going to listen to himself.
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