Creationism or Evolutionism.

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
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SirWhit
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So if some of it is literal and some is not, how do we know what is and isn't?
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Eleventh Doctor
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If you're asking me I would say that's where the deep reading comes into play.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:Every part of the Bible should be taken literally? Even Revelation? A confusing book if ever there was one, are you saying that book is straightforward?

You're not God and you can't pretend to know what God means by repeating something twice but you do know for sure that God meant for the Bible to have a plain meaning that wouldn't require us to read deeply, seems like you're contradicting yourself. Do you not know what God's intentions are in Genesis or do you know how He intended the book to be read?

I think the Bible is one of the greatest pieces of literature in history period and as such requires an extremely deep reading, there are layers upon layers of meaning and symbolism in the Bible. It defies simple literal understanding.

As for the Exodus verse, so Moses never used figurative language?
As mr Whitsend pointed out, if we don't take the whole Bible literally, how can we be sure about the part of our salvation? How do we know not to take that figuratively or literally?
One part of the Bible where it talks about how it should be read is Psalms 119:160: Your Word is true from the beginning.
Also, quite a lot of the New Testament refers back to Adam and Eve and the fall. Are we not supposed to take that literally too?
As for Revelation, if you don't want to believe it, what is your explanation for it being in Gods Word to us??
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Eleventh Doctor
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We have to deeply study the Bible to determine what parts are figurative and which are literal. But are you really saying you take the entire Bible literally? I mean what about the Psalms? You cited Psalms 119, earlier in that chapter the writer says "My soul clings to the dust" & "My soul melts from heaviness" is the writer speaking literally?

My salvation is not dependent on a book but on Christ, it is Christ who is the true Word of God. We are not saved by the Bible and the early Christians didn't have an agreed upon canon of Scripture until nearly 300 AD, what were people doing until then?

I'm not saying I don't believe in Revelation, I can say something is figurative and still believe it is true. Let's clarify something really quick, when I say I don't take parts of the Bible literally that is not saying I don't believe those parts to be divinely inspired and true, I do believe that Genesis is divinely inspired and true. When I pray the Psalm and say Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. I am expressing my belief that God will protect me and that I trust in Him; at the same time I'm not walking through a valley called the shadow death and God is not using an actual rod and staff. So to clarify really quick and to make sure we're on the same page, is the verse above figurative or literal?
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:We have to deeply study the Bible to determine what parts are figurative and which are literal. But are you really saying you take the entire Bible literally? I mean what about the Psalms? You cited Psalms 119, earlier in that chapter the writer says "My soul clings to the dust" & "My soul melts from heaviness" is the writer speaking literally?

My salvation is not dependent on a book but on Christ, it is Christ who is the true Word of God. We are not saved by the Bible and the early Christians didn't have an agreed upon canon of Scripture until nearly 300 AD, what were people doing until then?

I'm not saying I don't believe in Revelation, I can say something is figurative and still believe it is true. Let's clarify something really quick, when I say I don't take parts of the Bible literally that is not saying I don't believe those parts to be divinely inspired and true, I do believe that Genesis is divinely inspired and true. When I pray the Psalm and say Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; For You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me. I am expressing my belief that God will protect me and that I trust in Him; at the same time I'm not walking through a valley called the shadow death and God is not using an actual rod and staff. So to clarify really quick and to make sure we're on the same page, is the verse above figurative or literal?
The writer was using an example to prove a literal point, as any other book will.
I'm glad you're trusting God for your salvation just as I am, but if God wrote something in His perfect Word such as salvation, I'd take it literally. I'm glad you take that part literally.
I see what you mean by thinking Revelation is figurative. However, I'm still curious as to what your explanation is for the book itself.
So, when God says on Psalms 119:160, Your Word is true from the beginning, you think it's figurative? That contradicts that verse.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Figuratively means using descriptive language to make a point, literal does not mean true. I think that's where our misunderstanding lays.

I think the book's writings to the seven churches is very valuable and I think it also gives us valuable guidance in regards to worship.

I think it's using figurative language to say that Christ, who is the Word of God, has existed since the beginning.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:Figuratively means using descriptive language to make a point, literal does not mean true. I think that's where our misunderstanding lays.

I think the book's writings to the seven churches is very valuable and I think it also gives us valuable guidance in regards to worship.

I think it's using figurative language to say that Christ, who is the Word of God, has existed since the beginning.
But what do you think of when it talks about the end times? Mark of the beast?
I see where you're coming from with Christ being the Word of God, but is says YOUR word. If it didn't say your, then we could say it means Christ. However, since it says your, it's definitely talking about the word of God. It also wouldn't make as much sense if it said Your Christ is true from the beginning. And, if we read it in context, it is taking about how Gods Word is everlasting, and continues to use the word "your."
Also, when you said we must study the Bible deeply to see what parts to take literally, how to we know what parts to study deeply?
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I have no idea, I haven't studied it deeply enough to have a real opinion and there are other things I could be studying that would be more profitable.

I looked at the context more and you're right that's it's talking about the Bible. But again, figurative things can be true, something does not need to be literal to be true.

I would say every part needs to be studied deeply.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:I have no idea, I haven't studied it deeply enough to have a real opinion and there are other things I could be studying that would be more profitable.

I looked at the context more and you're right that's it's talking about the Bible. But again, figurative things can be true, something does not need to be literal to be true.

I would say every part needs to be studied deeply.
So...every part of the Bible should be studied deeply, but Revelation isn't profitable? It isn't profitable to know how we and the rest of the world will end? Just wondering.
So...if you don't think that verse is talking about Gods Word being true from the beginning, what explanation do you have? It seems as if that verse is deliberately telling us that Genesis 1:1 is true from the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth.
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I never said Revelation isn't profitable, I said that trying to interpret it as a literal account of the End Times and trying to figure out exactly what will happen is generally unprofitable. I mean what impact would it have on your life to know how the world will end? But there are plenty of things we can learn from Revelation besides how the world will end.

I agreed with you that it is saying Scripture is true from the beginning. Where I disagreed was that something needs to be literal to be true, the figurative can be true as well. I am in complete agreement with you that God created the heavens and the earth, I just disagree that it took six literal days.
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I know I haven't been involved in this debate much at all, but please stop accusing theistic evolutionists of not believing God created the heavens and the earth, especially since that's the most important difference between theistic evolutionists and "regular" evolutionists. Move on to another argument, but make sure you understand what a theistic evolutionist is first. *quietly leaves since he has nothing else to add*
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:I never said Revelation isn't profitable, I said that trying to interpret it as a literal account of the End Times and trying to figure out exactly what will happen is generally unprofitable. I mean what impact would it have on your life to know how the world will end? But there are plenty of things we can learn from Revelation besides how the world will end.

I agreed with you that it is saying Scripture is true from the beginning. Where I disagreed was that something needs to be literal to be true, the figurative can be true as well. I am in complete agreement with you that God created the heavens and the earth, I just disagree that it took six literal days.
I think knowing where we go after we die or when out time is up is quite comforting, as a Christian. I'm glad God put Revelation in the Bible. I apologize if I implied you didn't think Revelation is profitable.
I see now where our problem lies. I thought you believed in evolution, but this is really more about 6 literal or figurative days. Do you believe the fall of man happened after these 6 "days"?
Also if you don't believe in 6 literal creation days, how do you know Christ rose from the dead in 3 literal days? How do you know the flood lasted for 40 days and 40 nights?
Also, The Bible tells us that Adam was created on the sixth day. If he lived through day six and day seven, and then died when he was 930 years old, and if each of these days was a thousand or a million years, there is a definite problem. On the fourth day of creation (Genesis 1:14-19), we are given the comparison of day to night, and days to years. If the word “day” doesn’t mean an ordinary day, then the comparison of day to night and day to years becomes meaningless.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Thank you for the apology. I'm glad to hear you find Revelation profitable and comforting.

Yes, I do
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I see now where our problem lies. I thought you believed in evolution, but this is really more about 6 literal or figurative days. Do you believe the fall of man happened after these 6 "days"?
Also if you don't believe in 6 literal creation days, how do you know Christ rose from the dead in 3 literal days? How do you know the flood lasted for 40 days and 40 nights?
Also, The Bible tells us that Adam was created on the sixth day. If he lived through day six and day seven, and then died when he was 930 years old, and if each of these days was a thousand or a million years, there is a definite problem. On the fourth day of creation (Genesis 1:14-19), we are given the comparison of day to night, and days to years. If the word “day” doesn’t mean an ordinary day, then the comparison of day to night and day to years becomes meaningless.[/quote]
Perhaps maybe you could expand on this?
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Eleventh Doctor
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I can believe in evolution and believe God created the universe. I do believe in the fall of man and that yes it happened after these six days.

I know Christ rose from the dead in three days because the Gospels are written as accounts of Christ's life here on earth. Genesis was not written as a literal historical or scientific account. The flood may have lasted 40 days and 40 nights, I haven't read much on the flood.

Simple answer, Adam hasn't fallen and so was not under the bondage of death.

The fourth days says "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years" It says let them be not that they were a day and a night, in fact this lends credence to the fact that seasons, days, and years passed.
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So why don't you think it was 6 literal days, especially since it says there was evening and morning, one day?
Genesis is historical. It definitely isn't poetic. It is an account of God as Creator.
If you believe in evolution, why isn't it happening now? And why did only some apes evolve into humans and there are still apes today?
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Eleventh Doctor
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I think that because I disagree that Genesis is a historical account, I do think it is poetic.

It is happening now, just at a slower rate since we don't have as much to adapt to as before. It is a common misconception that apes evolved into humans, evolution states that we have a common ancestor.
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The book of Genesis certainly doesn't sound poetic to me, and such accounts like creation, Moses,the Israelites, etc... Are very historical. In fact, by the time Jewish boys were 12, they had to memorize the first 5 books, their Jewish history.
In what ways are we evolving? How do you know?
So, if we have a common ancestor, Adam and Eve weren't humans then?
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We witness to animals? Animals can be saved?
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SirWhit
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You make no sense at all.
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