Creationism or Evolutionism.

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
Post Reply
User avatar
Tea Ess
Pineapple Whip
Posts: 3588
Joined: May 2012
Location: Michigan

Post

That's a rather useless perspective of debate. It would be more polite to say something like:

"I think we both are convinced of our viewpoints, and I don't think this debate is resulting in any useful discussion, so I will bow out."
"Happy Birthday to Hot Leaf Water Ess!" - Belle
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

Oliver wrote:yeah I know. it's no use he's only going to listen to himself.
And you're not listening to yourself?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Oliver
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 323
Joined: February 2013
Location: a ugly little city in tx

Post

TS, that's not how I talk tho, so Im not going to say that sorry. I don't mean to be rude. 11th, what do you mean Im not listening to myself?
Image
LOTR IS AWESOME
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

I mean how am I any different than you? We're both coming at this issue from our own perspective.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Oliver
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 323
Joined: February 2013
Location: a ugly little city in tx

Post

no because the Bible says He made it in six days. I'm not making something up in my head Im just saying what the Bible says. And if the Bible said God made it over billions of years then you would be right but thats not what it says.
Last edited by Oliver on Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
LOTR IS AWESOME
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

I'm just making stuff up now? I don't really appreciate that. I feel like I'm looking at the historical and cultural context.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Oliver
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 323
Joined: February 2013
Location: a ugly little city in tx

Post

well maybe you're not making it up but maybe you're listening to other people. I don't know and i dont really care and i think im just going to shut up before i get in trouble.
Image
LOTR IS AWESOME
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

Are you saying you read Genesis and came to your own conclusions without anyone telling you about a literal six day creation?

As for the billions of years, the universe itself testifies that the earth is older than the 6,000 or 10,000 that Young Earth Creationist claim. Also Genesis doesn't tell us the age of the earth, that is something you have to listen to other people or come up with in your head to get. The universe itself tells us that it is millions of years old.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Oliver
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 323
Joined: February 2013
Location: a ugly little city in tx

Post

I said im just going to shut up remeber? I'm done with this
Image
LOTR IS AWESOME
User avatar
NateVONgreat
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 239
Joined: August 2013
Location: Gulf Of Oman, either that or Karkand

Post

"Are you saying you read Genesis and came to your own conclusions without anyone telling you about a literal six day creation? " uhhh.... yes! It is very understandable, especially the six literal days part, and especially in the original hebrew. saying that the universe proves that it is older, is fine, but that doesnt mean it is true, for example "how can light from stars billions of light years away get to us in 6000 years?" well, I think God created the Stars with the light already getting here, just like he created Adam and Eve as grown humans and not babies, who ate from fruit, and not seeds planted in the ground the day of the creation.
Genesis DOES tell us the age of the earth it tells us what age each person was when he was born (0 duh...) and when he died, and when he gave birth to his son, then it says about his son. and you can very accurately track that information to a time period known by archeology or other historic scripts.
But I really dont care for the scientific reasoning, the REAL problem with the world being old is that if the earth is billions of years old, and evolution happened then you have death before sin, and if you have death before sin there is no reason to Christ coming and dying on the cross, meaning that he is not the savior and that you are not going to get to heaven. and if genesis is false, the rest of the bible is false, so why believe any of it?

Sandwiches are wonderful
Sandwiches are fine!
I like sandwiches, I eat them all the time!
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

Where did you study ancient Hebrew?

Why would God create a universe that deceives us by appearing older than it is?

Okay if you think those genealogies are meant to be perfect historical records then I can see how you got to your conclusion.

I'm not saying Genesis is false, I'm saying it doesn't convey the information you're claiming it does. I believe everything in the Bible. I just choose to look at the historical and cultural context. But I think we've arrived at the main issue, you don't care about scientific reasoning; you decided ahead of time what conclusion you would reach and evidence will not convince you.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
NateVONgreat
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 239
Joined: August 2013
Location: Gulf Of Oman, either that or Karkand

Post

WHERE DID I STUDY ANCIENT HEBREW!? I speak Hebrew as a mother tongue, and the Hebrew that Moses used to write genesis is not that different, I can understand it quite clearly, some parts are hard or confusing but for the most part it is very similar.
And I think if God didn't do that (the light thing) then we either wouldn't have star light or us humans would have found something else to cry about and make up reasons why the bible is wrong (It was NOT God Fearing men who came up with the idea of the world being millions of years old). So God did it, I don't know why, but I am sure that if he didn't we would still not believe/ What do you want him to do? come to earth with a big earth-quake and loud voice informing everyone that he exists and then say that he created the world 6000 years ago? he will do that, but not yet.

I believe the Bible is perfect, meaning that everything written in it is 100% true. including the genealogy tree, i mean I dont understand why you would think the genealogy tree is not true? I mean , they get into extreme detail...

"you decided ahead of time what conclusion you would reach and evidence will not convince you."

you are absolutely right, why should I believe you, or any other human, even if he is the worlds smartest scientist, instead of what God says? he wants simple faith, like a child's faith. therefore I shall always (I hope to always, I don;t want to ever lose my faith) believe God with true heart, he says, I believe.

Sandwiches are wonderful
Sandwiches are fine!
I like sandwiches, I eat them all the time!
Helios
Butter Pecan
Posts: 2937
Joined: November 2013
Location: Stealing your place in the sun

Post

"Why would God create a universe that deceives us by appearing older than it is?"

Good question. Maybe we only look at it that way because of our sin nature. :?
Image
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

So Nate, you're saying that the Hebrew written and spoken 6,000 years ago is the same as you speak today? Or at least very similar? Because that seems unlikely, the English spoken in Shakespeare's time has significant differences to the English spoken today.

At Helios, that would still be creating a universe that deceives us.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Blitz
Moose Tracks
Posts: 3787
Joined: February 2013

Post

Okay simple answer for this question. Adam, Eve, the animals, and the trees were fully grown. Simple explanation. Why would God make stars we couldn't see? All the original things were 'old'. *disappears again.*
Debate Vampire

Everyone (Blitz doesn't count) fears ninjas, except for one: I, Ninjahunter

Can you change me from the monster you made me? Monster: Starset
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

I think the question is whether if DNA samples were taken would they have appeared to be years or decades old? And if the trees were cut down would they have rings that denote growth?

Also that still doesn't answer the question of why God would want to deceive our sense, why are we told to look to nature if nature lies to us?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

*quietly strolls in*

Yes, and why would you assume that God created Adam and Eve as fully formed humans? That gives the impression that they were once babies and then grew over time into adulthood. God would not so obviously deceive our senses.

*quietly strolls back out*
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

As I said in the post just above yours Christian, if we had taken DNA samples of Adam and Eve would their DNA appear to be old or would it be new? That's what I'm asking.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
User avatar
Striped Leopard
Cookies & Creme
Posts: 339
Joined: May 2012
Location: Ohio
Contact:

Post

I see no reason to believe that the DNA would not have appeared to be older than it was. Same with the tree rings. The very existence of both is enough to imply a false history. The existence of a chicken implies there was an egg. And yet we know that God used supernatural means to create it without the use of an egg. I would say the same is true about the issue of distant starlight.

I won't claim that it's as simple as "God made the universe with light immediately coming to Earth from billions of light years away," because enire papers have been written about other possibilities; but I don't believe distant starlight ultimately contradicts the idea of a young universe.
Formerly Christian A. :)
Jeremiah 13:23
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Ephesians 2:4-10

God has done the impossible! He has, in effect, changed a leopard's spots into stripes! He turned me, one who was accustomed to do evil, into one who can walk in good works! He brought me to life from the dead and gave me His Spirit, in order to cause me to walk in His statutes! He has totally changed me, and it is all for His glory!
User avatar
Eleventh Doctor
Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
Posts: 4769
Joined: February 2013

Post

So are you then saying God set out to deceive our senses?

Also what about carbon dating? Hasn't that proven the earth is older than 6,000 or 10,000 years old?
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
Post Reply