Baptism!

[sheltiez]

As far as I know, Catholics do believe in immaculate conception. PF will have to back me up with this, but immaculate conception is the believe that Jesus was sinless because Mary was miraculously protected from sin by the Holy Spirit. I don't believe it, but I know of it because of my many Catholic relatives.

[AIOluver36]

Well I have to say that Jesus was sinless because He was the Son of God... Mary, His earthly mother, was just like you and me. She wasn't holy or perfect, she was sinful like everyone on this earth. God just had a special plan for her like He has special plan for all of us, if we chose Him as our "Captain". Jesus is the only way to heaven. "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." - John 14:6

[Pound Foolish]

That's totally right, Sheltiez! Jesus couldn't be carried in a body with sin. That would be like pouring expensive wine into an ugly glass with a ton of leaks. So, he erased sin from Mary's soul before she was born. After that, with some help from extra grace from God that she had through her immaculate conception, she fought through her life to never sin for the sake of God and her beliefs.
And, true, AIOluver, as far as Jesus being sinless and, well, he's the BEST and SUREST way to Heaven. As far as being the only... it depends what you mean. God doesn't poll people on whether they believe in Jesus or not and throw them into Hell if they say "No." But, yes, it's God and only God who brings us to Heaven. He is the ONLY way there. Through His power.

[Tea Ess]

Well, I am actually not immediately thrown into convulsions at the realization that you are Catholic.

I have some pretty mixed feelings that I haven't fully shared before. We had some very close friends, two different families, that were both Catholic. Only God really knows, but I would say that all of them were saved, and I will be seeing them again in heaven.

Every relative on one side of my family professes to be Catholic. Its a very painful topic for my family, because we each realize that they are headed in the complete wrong direction. I know to judge them as I would be judged, but i also know that our relatives have no personal relationship with Jesus. They attend church only on Christmas Eve, concerning themselves with the sacraments, and nothing else. Without communicating with my parents, the rest of the family arranged a double infant baptism for my cousin and me. My mother knew just enough at that point in her life to realize that the way her side of the family was doing things was not the right way. So she opted against the infant baptism.

It was a couple of years later that both of my parents accepted Christ and were baptized, but they were steady attenders of the church before then. So all of my childhood memories include going to church every Sunday. Now, I don't know many details of all the religious happenings between then and now, but I do know that my parents have succeeded in getting a few of our relatives to attend a couple of services in our church. Our grandparents came to our church 12 years ago, and my mother finally succeeded in getting them to come to pur new one. However, they just dont realize what danger they are in. As far as their concerned, they have a free ticket to heaven, and we are the pnes that should worry. It's absolutely heartbreaking, I can't imagine how Jesus must feel, but I think we will remain alone in our faith for years. I do have an aunt that God has been working on, but she is still trapping herself in the darkness, she can't see things as God does. It may be possible that I will get to see one or maybe two of my great grandparents in heaven, but I don't know about anyone else. I note, with all sincerity and sadness, that maybe that is the reason I have three other siblings. At least I will have them.

Back to the Catholic Church.

I know that anyone can be saved through a relationship with Jesus. I know that I will see many Catholics in heaven.

I think that some of the Catholic's beliefs hamper them. I don't think they condemn them, but they are confusing and distracting. I must disagree with you on Mary. We are told that she was a pure, upright woman, but she was human. She fell under the curse of Adam. She was not exempt. As for infant baptism, I have controversial feelings on this. In a way, it's the parent's way of dedicating their children, a promise to raise the, up in the Lord. But I also think that God intended for our relationship to be directly with Him. No one else can make that choice for us.

[sheltiez]

Absolutely, T.S. I can relate to what you said. Your Catholic relatives sound exactly like my dad's family. They are all Catholics that only go to church on Christmas and Easter. I prayed for my grandparents every day for years. Thankfully, my grandmother accepted Jesus as her Savior right before she died and my grandpa is now a Christian too. (He attends Crystal Cathedral which I think a lot of you are familiar with). I also agree with you that Catholics will be in Heaven. I am currently reading Of the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis, a Catholic from the 15th Century, and he knew his Bible so well and loved Jesus so much. I know many Catholics who are very good and sincere Christians. But still, I do not believe that Catholicism is correct.

[C-guy]

Absolutely, T.S. I can relate to what you said. Your Catholic relatives sound exactly like my dad's family. They are all Catholics that only go to church on Christmas and Easter. I prayed for my grandparents every day for years. Thankfully, my grandmother accepted Jesus as her Savior right before she died and my grandpa is now a Christian too. (He attends Crystal Cathedral which I think a lot of you are familiar with). I also agree with you that Catholics will be in Heaven. I am currently reading Of the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis, a Catholic from the 15th Century, and he knew his Bible so well and loved Jesus so much. I know many Catholics who are very good and sincere Christians. But still, I do not believe that Catholicism is correct.

I don't think any 1 denomation is completely corrett. I think we get a lot right, and some wrong. Think about it...

[sheltiez]

I agree with that, C-guy. We are only fallable humans, so we will make mistakes in doctrine and beliefs.

[Pound Foolish]

You seem to have been given quite the horrible example of Catholics, T.S., and are loaded with misconceptions of them. It's sad how much judge large, complex groups on the highly limited amount of people we happen to know personally, but we inadvertently end up doing so. Frankly, I find your relatives claim they are Catholic utterly absurd. They are a part of the sadly many Christians who identify themselves as Christians yet make no effort to act Christian. Trust me, there aren't many Catholics like the ones you mentioned. Yes, as you say, we do believe the sacraments to be very central to the mass celebration... that's why we are supposed to go every Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation, partially. To receive them. It's NOT a reason to be a slacker. If I were to miss mass for any other reason than illness, my parents would have a cow. We have had a hilarious priest for the past six years. He liked to say on Christmas and Easter, the big days when tons of people come to church who go once or twice a year, "For all of you who go 'Oh, going to church once or twice a year is just FINE, thank you...' Thanks a LOT!" As for feeling alone, that's terribly troubling. It must cause you many hours of deep melancholy. I can't even begin to imagine your feelings.
And if your relatives believed they had "free ticket to Heaven", that's not only ridiculous, it goes against the Catholic Catechism. I'm not saying they were bad people. I don't know them, and even if I did, it wouldn't be up to me to judge them and be prude. But I can say their behavior was the opposite of Catholic belief and tradition.
As for Mary, I don't hope to change your opinions there any time soon, non-Catholics can be very opinionated about Mary. However, there's NO Biblical evidence Mary wasn't born pure of heart. I'm sure you'd think otherwise. If you'll tell me which ones you believe do so, I'll disillusion you with relish.

[Tea Ess]

First, I just want to say that I have not had a lot of contact with the Catholic church. Besides our friends and relatives, i really dont know much about your beliefs. So, I know that my view is very much slanted, and always will be, because of our relatives. I am trying to be as unbiased/fair as possible, but keep in mind that you are my first good experience with a Catholic for a while.

Well, I realized I didn't do my normal proof read of my post before submitting it. If I had, I would have included a couple of things which might have made it clearer. So, I suppose I can add them here.

The first tiny example I gave should have been expanded a little more, to give a little more of a balanced feeling. I forgot to mention that these friends (one of the first sentences) were some of the politest, fun, and considerate people I have met. I know they were dedicated to the church, and I could definitely see Christ in them.

Now, forgive me, for I am not very acquainted with the doctrines and traditions of Catholics, so please correct me where I am mistaken. I was thinking about it, and I think that the Catholics have more customs and traditions than a lot of Protestant churches. So what I was thinking about applies to most churches, but especially Catholics. I was was wondering if traditions in the church overall helped our faith or hampered it and I came to this conclusion. I think that the rituals and traditions of churches are a guide to some in their faith, that they act as a line that points the way. In this way, traditions can be helpful in that they point to God and help us to serve Him better. However, I also think that there are people who get caught up with following all the traditions, and loose their focus on God, whether this be over years or over generations. I believe that my great-grandmother was a devout Catholic, but I don't know what happened in the time between her and her children. So I realize that my grandparents definitely do not represent their church, and I know that there are some churches, as with all denominations, that have drifted away from the right path.

As for Mary, I do not know of a verse that speaks directly of her state of soul, addressing her perfection or non-perfection. But if Mary had been perfect, she would not have been in need of a savior. She really wouldn't have needed a personal relationship with Christ if she had been perfect, right? Or, are you saying that through the perfection of Jesus, she became perfect in Him? Could you help me on this?

[Pound Foolish]

As far as rituals and doctrines, I see what you are saying. I don't know anyone who, as far as I am aware, fits your description personally, but I am sure there are at least a few. All good things can be misused. Our rituals are designed to focus us on wonder of God and prayer. For instance, we have a tradition on Holy Thursday to process down beneath the church and adore the Eucharist, where it is kept for Lent. As we believe that the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, this naturally is meant to inspire prayerful reflection on Jesus Christ.
Naturally, in our private lives, we have no rituals to perform, and so we simply work on our own prayer life and humble relationship with Him. At least, this is how it is supposed to be. As you say, there are those who just go to mass a couple times a year. As you say, these certainly are NOT necessarily bad people, even if it were our duty to judge them one way or the other. They may be excellent, kind, wonderful people. They are simply neglectful of Christianity's standards. And such people are not only ignoring Christianity, they, if Catholic, are staying away from the rituals and traditions designed to make them reflect on it. This is a sin. It does not give me reason or right to consider them bad people.
As to Mary... I'm embarrassed to admit you summed her up much better than my preachy gibberish in your last post. In fact, I've seen much similar phrasings in Catholic books. So, to attest to what you are saying and make things as clear as possible...
Mary DID need a savior. Jesus saved her by making he soul pure when she was born. This is because she received the grace of Jesus sorrowful death BEFORE she was born.
God doesn't live in time.
He arranged matters so Mary would be prepared to have baby Jesus.
Thank you for your thoughtful post. I hope you make a reply to my new post. And, if so, I hope to read it with as much respect, maturity, and open-mindedness as you seem to be reading mine.

[Tea Ess]

Thank you for your patience with me. I am unaquainted with a lot of your practices and beliefs.

Do all Catholics belief in Transubstantiation? (forgive me for my ignorance, as to my knowledge, there are few Catholic churches anywhere near here).

[Pound Foolish]

Correct. And actually, I'm impressed you even know that term. Sadly, I'm sure I know a few Catholics who don't!

-- Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:26 am --

Oh, but, no, not QUITE all. But it's one of our core beliefs, so NEARLY all. Just wanted to be a bit clearer.

[Striped Leopard]

So, just a quick question I've always wanted to ask a "transubstantiationist"...

Why wasn't Jesus in any pain when He was taking pieces of His body out of Himself and giving them to the disciples to eat--assuming this was his actual body He was dealing with.

[Pound Foolish]

Ha ha!
To be honest, one can't really explain this, though I'll try. It's like trying to explain the Trinity. Sure, you can try and make it sound logical, but nobody really understands it, and anyone who says so is just being big-headed.
Anyhow, Jesus' physical body, basically, is eternally self-renewing. See, God is everywhere, but Jesus' body was always in one concentrated physical area (otherwise, Christ couldn't be human.) He was finite. So, logically, all that has to happen is for Christ's physical presence to concentrated in other areas. Jesus Christ didn't have to break off pieces of himself, because God put Jesus' presence, that is, his flesh and blood, into bread. Since the Trinity is infinite, they/he can concentrate his/their physical presence anywhere, just as easily as in a walking, talking, breathing man. Bread and wine, or a burning bush (though I consider those inedible) or what have you. Or, to put it another way...
Ever heard of a thing called a miracle?

[Aaron Wiley]

@PF: I'm just not sure why the Catholic church takes what Jesus said so literally when he was talking about the Eucharist. Jesus spoke in parables and other cryptic speak his entire life, why was such a minute detail taken so far? Jesus didn't say "This break has become my body, and I've turned this wine into bread for your convenience" he said “Take, eat; this is my body.” and “Drink of it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." in the same way he told many other stories and metaphors. When he was about to teach one something, he didn't open up by saying "Let me warn you guys for a sec, this next thing I don't mean literally, It's just a story kthnx" it was just obvious by the way he said it that it was only a story, or he was using one thing to represent another.

[Pound Foolish]

Oh, no particular reason. It's just it's been believed for hundreds of years, is currently believed by an estimated 1 billion, has been confirmed by hundreds of the most influential theologians, including Saint Augustine and Aquinas, and has caused hundreds of miracles, some of them scientifically verified. That's all.

[brittany k]

Does anyone else baptize in the name of Jesus?

We baptize in Jesus name!

[Aaron Wiley]

Oh, no particular reason. It's just it's been believed for hundreds of years, is currently believed by an estimated 1 billion, has been confirmed by hundreds of the most influential theologians, including Saint Augustine and Aquinas, and has caused hundreds of miracles, some of them scientifically verified. That's all.

As I'm sure you know, this sort of Red Herring is known as a "appeal to the people", and is simple fallacy. Would you like to restate your argument with something a little more solid, perhaps something based on Biblical truth? Or maybe you explain these "Scientifically verified" miracles of bread turning into flesh.

I do wonder though, if it would be a lot easier to just get the stomach pumped of a person who had just taken communion at a catholic church, and test to see if there's any human flesh in there, or just crackers and grapejuice.

Of course, you don't have to explain all of this if you don't want to. In the end, this isn't a very theological argument at all; It's just one of those little nit-picky things that various sects of Christians squabble about, but don't make any real difference in the salvation experience.

[GabrielleFandomGirl]

I thik ita great, but when we baptize infants, we just sprinkle them with water.

[Pound Foolish]

http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst ... ciano.html

http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/resourc ... racle.html

There's a tiny, teensy weensy taste of the miracles.
As for having the stomach pumped, the bread and wine is Jesus' in ESSENCE. It's being is transformed into Jesus Christ. For instance, wheat can be ground into flour and cooked into bread. However, while we have a new name for it as a whole, the little specks that make up the flower are still technically wheat. Its form has changed, but its place in the spiritual world, which is basically nil, hasn't altered. In our bread, it is given an overwhelming spiritual change. God's spirit comes upon it, Jesus flesh is present. Physically present, in the bread. However, the bread's earthly form is still bread.
Biblical truth... Um, Jesus said it's his body? Yes, I know, I already mentioned that. As for why we interpret that literally, why wouldn't we? The Bible tells us this practice's origins very clearly. There's historical evidence it's been done since around the time of Jesus, as I stated. You can say that's irrelevant again if you want. But, really, if it goes back to about the time of Jesus, and Jesus seems to have instituted it, why shouldn't we interpret it literally? On what grounds can we ignore Jesus' claims? If he meant it's just a symbol of himself, and was saying one thing meaning something very different as he often did, then fine. Believe that. But the real question here is, why not believe it? Why assume he was being symbolic? Because it's seems weird and crazy? Frankly, ordinarily, I'd say it's crazy to save people by letting a bunch of kids die and sending bugs and diseases on some Egyptians, and turning their water sources into red blood cells (not very nourishing) to boot. On could say it's crazy to heal someone's eyes through a process involving spitting into dirt and then rubbing it over the patient's eyes. I doubt most doctors would try that. And it's a bit crazy to think of a a woman having a curse on her that made every man she married die one after the other.
I've given you some very good reasons to believe in it. People proclaim miracles that stem from the Eucharist. I showed in an above post that it's theologically possible. And JESUS said "This is my body." Say what you like, that's a pretty excusably okay scriptural foundation. Plus, it's in our favor to believe it. If God is giving himself to us in physical form and giving us grace, it's kinda a good idea to take advantage of it, isn't it? So, until one have some slight pricking of conscience, or even the tiniest hint from God of any kind, there's every reason to GO FOR IT.
SOOO...
What reason is there for this to be wrong?
I don't mean I'm trying to get you to convert. But there's no reason for me NOT to believe this. I don't care about how much it helps my "salvation experience." I care more if it's true.
And it is.
I've had God physically inside me.