Creation/Genesis (with the Ox)

[Tarol]

I have recently studied the topic of Creation/Genesis, and have found that I rather enjoy the controversy. So, I would like to offer my knowledge for a good old fashion Creation debate. ^_^ Please ask me any question pertaining to controversies in Genesis or on Creation. These can include questions about what I believe, what the other side of the argument might says, or, if you think you have a "silver bullet" argument for your side, I'd love to hear it as well.

I won't say too much about my beliefs, but, just to clue everyone in, I am not a Young-Earth Creationist. I will be mostly arguing from an Old-Earth perspective, but may decided to argue from an Evolutionary Creationist view as well. As for Genesis, I will rely up John Walton's view, Hugh Ross', and Michael Heiser's. I will try to argue with actual sources, and would like the same, but don't exactly require them.

Okay, I think that's it. I'll take all types of questions or debates, and feel free to comment or to help myself or someone else out in the debates. Let the debating begin!

[Miss Friendship]

How do you determine the age of a dinosaur?

How do you determine the age of rock layers?

I'd prefer your own words other than sources.

Also, do you believe in the Resurrection?

[Dream Big]

What verses in the Bible would you use to back up what you believe?

[Tarol]

I apologize for the delay, I have been very busy recently. I also had written out the answers to the questions...but then my internet dropped and I lost all of it. Anyway, here we go.

How do you determine the age of a dinosaur?

If you mean the age of the dinosaur when it died, probably by certain characteristics of the fossil, etc. If you mean dating a fossil, I will also respond to that. There is first Relative Dating, which means you look were on the Geological Column the fossil is found. If the fossil is found on the bottom, than it would be older than a fossil found up near the top of the Column. There is also Radiometric Dating, which uses calibrated measuring devises to calculate a more exact date of the fossil, compared to the "older than that" dating you would get from Relative Dating. (source)

How do you determine the age of rock layers?

First, it's easy to presume that the bottom layer is older than a layer above. Then, one can look at what animals appear in the layer, to help with dating. And, of course, radiometric dating can be used in layers as well. (source)

I'd prefer your own words other than sources.

Why, of course. I meant that I will try to have a source to back me up, if possible. *nods*

Also, do you believe in the Resurrection?

The Resurrection of Jesus, I presume? Of course! I assume you will use the same argument you gave to Eleventh Doctor, so I will also respond to that.

Since Jesus rose from the dead, everything He says is true.

"But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'

So Jesus here is agreeing with my interpretation of creation. By saying there was no millions of years. FROM THE BEGINNING, Adam and Eve existed.

First of all, you should notice that even in your interpretation, Adam and Eve did not exist FROM THE BEGINNING. That is, unless you believe like those in Augustine's time, who thought God created everything in an instant. If you read this literally, it sounds like Adam and Eve should have been the first thing created. However, in Genesis, it says: "In the Beginning God Created the Heavens and the Earth" not "In the Beginning God Created them Male and Female." It's rather silly to think God created the Heavens male and the Earth female. Now, to my response. Mark 10:6 is not the only Gospel that records this saying of Jesus. Matthew also does in Matthew 19:4. It reads:

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female'

Notice, that this quotation only says "the beginning" not "the beginning of Creation." Both verses show Jesus quoting from Genesis. Jesus quotes Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 2:24. One commentary says that some scholars believe the Pharisees during this conversation were trying to trick Jesus into contradicting Moses. Jesus does not fall into the trap, and actually outright quotes Moses, in Genesis.
Now, that is one response; but I believe the most convincing is answer is found simply by using the context. Jesus is talking to the Pharisees about marriage. I believe it is very simple to assume that Jesus is referring to the beginning of humanity (which is actually the last thing on God's "Creation list"). Jesus is pointing out that from humanity's very beginning there were two genders: male and female. And they were designed to be together, and to become one flesh. (source)

What verses in the Bible would you use to back up what you believe?

Hmm...good question. I guess I will handle it this way...:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

The Word (Jesus) was with God in the beginning, and everything was made through Jesus. Everything was made by God. This is basically the main thing I believe about Creation, that God has created everything. Now, of course, this doesn't mean things don't make themselves, we know that plants, animals, and humans can reproduce naturally, but that is all because of Jesus. I could also point to passages like Psalm 104, Job 34-38, and other Creation texts, or even Genesis 1:3-5. However, I believe that the above verse is the most important to what I believe about Creation.

Please feel free to ask me more questions, or comment on what I have said here or in the My Allegiance? thread. It may take me a little while to respond, but I would still love to answer your questions.

[Miss Friendship]

Yes, I believe rainbows are complete myths; and they also are occultish.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are using sarcasm here. If not, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU THINK THAT?

I believe God created a good creation, in order for evil to be destroyed.

When God created the world, there was no evil. So you have problem. Also, were there millions of years before Adam and Eve? How could animals die before sin had entered the world? Because it's because of sin that death became a thing.

All right. There are two of my questions from the Allegiance debate. Reply.

[Tarol]

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and hope you are using sarcasm here. If not, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU THINK THAT?

Yes, I was using sarcasm. However, it could (especially if I take your young-earth, no-rain-before-the-flood stance) be possible that there were pagan practices of a rainbow, even before God used it as a sign. (I guess it'd have to be man-made rainbows...) I mean, if days can be pagan, why can't nature?

When God created the world, there was no evil. So you have problem. Also, were there millions of years before Adam and Eve? How could animals die before sin had entered the world? Because it's because of sin that death became a thing.

And, why would you think that? Just to make it easier for me, please give me your Biblical and/or philosophical reasons for thinking God created this world without evil, that there was no evil before the fall, that there was no death before the fall, and there was no animal death before the fall. I will probably know every argument you'll bring up, but I don't want to refute arguments you haven't heard of.

[Miss Friendship]

And, why would you think that? Just to make it easier for me, please give me your Biblical and/or philosophical reasons for thinking God created this world without evil, that there was no evil before the fall, that there was no death before the fall, and there was no animal death before the fall. I will probably know every argument you'll bring up, but I don't want to refute arguments you haven't heard of

*takes this debate public*

To start with, I have always been taught as a biblical foundation that God created the world perfect. There was no sin. The Garden of Eden was created perfectly good. Genesis 1:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Next we have Eve disobeying God, which was sin, and death then followed as a result. Romans 6:23 explains that if we sin, we then pay the price by death. The two are clearly connected.

This brings us to, how could animals have been dying before sin entered into the world? Death would not have been a thing. God created everything good. The Garden of Eden was basically heaven. No sin, and once sin came, they had to leave. In heaven, there is no death. (Will animals die in heaven?)

So either explain how animals could have been dying when death is connected with sin, or you have to believe that Adam and Eve existed how many millions of years ago at the very start, which is unrealistic, because our earliest records of humans do not go back millions of years ago.

[Emma]

I would quote you, Countie, but it'd take to long. And no, the Bible never says there was no evil. No physical evil, yes. But spiritual evil goes a LOOOOONG way back before Earth.

In the verse(s), John 1:1-3, it said nothing could be created, unless it were created by God, so how did evil get there?


*Note: Please understand that these are questions I wonder sometimes, and that I am not trying to turn your belief around or something strange like that...

[Miss Friendship]

OK, so obviously the first sin was when Satan rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven. Good point.

In the verse(s), John 1:1-3, it said nothing could be created, unless it were created by God, so how did evil get there?

Satan arrived and messed up God's creation.

Here is a quote I read concerning death/sin/evolution.

Scripture plainly tells us that God will remove the effects of man's sin. This is the conclusion of Romans 8:19-21, yet we can see other passages which picture the results of God's intervention, such as Isaiah 11:6-9 and Revelation 21, 22.

The Isaiah passage clearly depicts a totally different picture of nature than we presently experience. Animals are eating only plants. Once again, there is no more carnivorous activity. Animals, even poisonous snakes, can play with infants. This is a totally different future for the world than is predicted by evolution.

The two chapters in Revelation show that after sin is vanquished, death, pain, and sorrow will also be vanquished. If this is the restoration of the creation, we are left with a plaguing question about death if we believe in evolution. Why is death being done away with? If God originally intended death to be an integral part of His creation, then God should allow death to continue into eternity. So we are left with the conclusion that death is an aberration caused by man, in God's plan.

[Tarol]

Good comments, MF. This is going to be a lot to get through, but I will first talk about evil before the fall, and eventually move on to animal death and human death.. I will first begin with arguments from an Old-Earth perspective.

As MF pointed out, we are told in Genesis 1, that God created the world “good.” But, we are told later, in Revelation 21-22, that God is going to create a perfect Creation, one that is no longer separate from God, and one without pain or death or suffering. If God knew that humans were going to sin, it’s conceivable that He would make a good creation that worked perfectly for sinful humans. However, when sin is finally defeated, there will no longer be a need for just a “good” creation, and God will then make a perfect creation.

The Garden of Eden was also brought up. First of all, Genesis tells us that the Garden of Eden was a small area on Earth, not the entire planet. It could be very possible that God created a small area of perfection for Adam and Eve. However, we aren’t told this stretches out to the entire planet. In fact, when God first speaks to the first humans, He tells them to “fill and subdue” (emphasis mine) the earth. This could be pointing to the fact that humans had to subdue the earth, and spread perfection, like in the Garden of Eden, to the whole world. Some Bible’s have a header in Revelation that says “Return to the Garden of Eden.” However, there is no real reason to assume the new Creation will be a return to the Garden of Eden. The only clues are that two trees of life are grown in the new Creation, but this does not mean the New Creation will be returned to the state of the earth-before-sin, or even the Garden of Eden.

As Emma pointed out, there was evil before sin entered humanity. The New Testament tells us the serpent in the Garden was Satan, who is an embodiment of evil. Meaning, there was evil most likely before the creation of this universe. As I said previously, God could have known that His creation would one day sin, and He planned accordingly. In other words, in a Young-Earth scenario, there was a huge sonic boom when humanity first sinned, and then all the plants and animals would now be cursed towards evil. In the Old-Earth scenario, God made the planet that way, in the first place.

I can talk about this subject for quite a while, but I will reply slowly, in order not to overwhelm everyone.

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I also would like to respond to Emma:

In the verse(s), John 1:1-3, it says nothing could be created, unless it were created by God, so how did evil get there?

Good question. I think I will refer you to Eleventh Doctor, who likes to say that evil is the corruption of good. It has no existence. If it did, that verse would cause trouble.
(I believe this is a much better argument than MF’s, mostly because, her argument says Satan created evil, which may lead towards Satan being stronger than God)

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Bibliography and For Further Reading:

Nash, D. R. (2000, October 1). Problem of Evil. Retrieved from Reasons to Believe: http://www.reasons.org/articles/problem-of-evil

Ross, H. (2015). A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy (2nd Expanded ed.). Colorado Springs: NavPress.

[Miss Friendship]

OK, but that still isn't explaining how creation fell because of sin. Adam and Eve were barred from the Garden of Eden because they sinned. Everything changed. Things were cursed. Thorns were now a thing. Why would the ground be effected for Adam and Eve's sin? This seems to indicate the animals were effected too.

[Tarol]

Okay, you kinda answered your own question there, MF. How were they cursed? They were barred from the Garden of Eden. They were no longer in Paradise, and no longer were able to spread Paradise ...because they were kicked from it.

Now, to death. First, death is an interesting subject in the New Testament. We are told several times that death is an enemy of God. However, we are also told Jesus had to die, and that we have to die (to our old selves) in order to follow him. We are also promised eternal life…yet we die. In fact, death, in some translations, is translated in the New Testament as “falling asleep.” Could it be possible that death is not as evil as we normally think of it as?

Animal death was also brought up. There are few New Testament verses that talk about death being caused by sin. However, each verse is very specific in talking about humanity, not all creation. In fact, saying sin=death, must also mean death=sin (Euclid’s first axiom). However, that must also mean plants and animals have sinned, because they die. And Jesus did not sin, yet he died. I know this isn't a good defense, but I just want to show a different way of thinking about sin and death. There is, however, one verse that applies to all of creation. Romans 8:20. It says that all of creation is subject to uselessness, not because it wanted to, but because of the One who subjected it. This shows creation is “cursed,” but we are only told God caused the curse. The Genesis 3 curses are also in more of a past-tense, which could be saying that God was only reiterating what He already had allowed to happen in the past. This does not prove there was animal death before the Fall, but it shows how the Bible hardly refers to it at all.

Carnivorism is also something looked down upon as an After-Fall evil, but let’s see what the Bible says… I could go into the scientific arguments, as to how animals have to eat meat in order to have the proper amount of energy to be “wild animals” mentioned in Genesis 1:24. But, I’ll instead discuss the verse in Genesis saying animals were given “green plants.” This, however, does not have to be implying that all animals ate only green plants, but, instead, could be pointing out to early humanity that green plants were important. All animals eat green plants, whether it’s straight from the plant, or from eating an animal that eats green plants. God, knowing this, could have been showing the importance of green plants to humans. A few other verses in the Bible talk about carnivorism…and they appear to be praising it! I’ll let you see for yourself, and quote these three verses from Psalms and Job.

[God speaking] Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions?

The lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God.

All creatures look to you [God] to give them their food at the proper time. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things.

Okay, now for an even more controversial topic…human death before the fall. One clue that this is possible is that Genesis mentions a Tree of Life. After God curses humanity, He says He must remove humans from access to the Tree of Life, or they will live forever. The Tree of Life must have been in the Garden before God pronounced His curse on humanity…but why? If the Tree of Life can give eternal life, and the first humans lived eternal lives, what was the point of a Tree of Life? One could conclude that maybe not even the early humans had eternal life, but they had access to eternal life through the Tree of Life.

What about God’s curse of death to Adam and Eve? First of all, we have Genesis 2:17, which says: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” There is first the age-old question: how did Adam knew what death was? In fact, we are told in Genesis 2, Adam was made and placed in the Garden. So, we can assume (in the Old-Earth scenario) that Adam saw death there, and knew to be afraid of it…that death was not his goal. And then there is the other question…Adam and Eve did not fall over and die when they ate of the Tree of Good and Evil. So, we can, at least, in this passage, assume God is talking about a spiritual death. Or, we could say Adam and Eve lost their access to eternal life, the Tree of Life, and now, they had no way of avoiding death.

Now, these aren't all the arguments, and these also aren't totally convincing arguments as well, but I think they show a possible way that one can accept an old earth with animal death, and still hold to the Bible, and Genesis 1 and 2.

(I will eventually respond to you, MF, about your quote about death/sin/evolution. )

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Bibliography and For Further Reading:

Biologos. (n.d.). Did Death Occur Before the Fall?. Retrieved from Biologos: https://biologos.org/common-questions/h ... -the-fall/

Nash, D. R. (2000, October 1). Problem of Evil. Retrieved from Reasons to Believe: http://www.reasons.org/articles/problem-of-evil

Ross, H. (2015). A Matter of Days: Resolving a Creation Controversy (2nd Expanded ed.). Colorado Springs: NavPress.

Walton, J. (2015). The Lost World of Adam and Eve. Illinois: InterVarsity Press.

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EDIT:
Now, to my response to Miss Friendship's recent post. Here is her post, for reference:

Scripture plainly tells us that God will remove the effects of man's sin. This is the conclusion of Romans 8:19-21, yet we can see other passages which picture the results of God's intervention, such as Isaiah 11:6-9 and Revelation 21, 22.

The Isaiah passage clearly depicts a totally different picture of nature than we presently experience. Animals are eating only plants. Once again, there is no more carnivorous activity. Animals, even poisonous snakes, can play with infants. This is a totally different future for the world than is predicted by evolution.

The two chapters in Revelation show that after sin is vanquished, death, pain, and sorrow will also be vanquished. If this is the restoration of the creation, we are left with a plaguing question about death if we believe in evolution. Why is death being done away with? If God originally intended death to be an integral part of His creation, then God should allow death to continue into eternity. So we are left with the conclusion that death is an aberration caused by man, in God's plan.
*quote is from here*

And my response:

First, I kind of addressed the Romans 8 verse already… And, I also have said that the new creation will not be a return to the Garden of Eden.

I also don’t believe Evolution is the “new creation.” I still believe God will create again.

I also think I have addressed this, but I will state it again anyway. God created the first creation because there was evil. God created a world that was perfect for humans that were not free of evil. This was the best way to destroy evil once and for all, and to give His creation (humans) power over sin. In the end, God will finally destroy evil, and Christians will be given authority, even over the angels, because they were tested by sin, but did not fall.