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There are many different aspects to view Jesus's death on the cross for sinners. A very popular one I have heard (Ray Comfort uses this in witnessing) is that Jesus came and bore the penalty for our sins. We sinned and He took the consequences.

But there is also the view of a "ransom." By sinning we are enslaved to Satan. It's like a Kidnapper who kidnaps a child, and then calls the parents and says, "I kill the child unless you give me a million dollars." That money is a "ransom."

So did Jesus bear the penalty of our sins, or did He by his death, pay our ransom?

There are verses to support both sides of this. Also, this doesn't have to be a debate, as much as a discussion.

I think that it's both. As the wages of sin is death, we, who are sinners, deserve to die for our rebellion against God; Jesus's death in our place is the price we should have paid. But at the same time, we also had no hope to save ourselves from the sin to which we were enslaved, and Jesus was the only sacrifice that could propitiate for us and save us to a relationship with God.

I believe the ransom theory and found this article that I think sums up this view. http://www.antiochian.org/saint-athanas ... t-doctrine

I hope it will spark discussion and not debate.

Tiger, I don't see the need to propitiate Jesus to save our relationship with God.

Oh? Why is that?

Because that places a burden on God. Also if we look at the parable of the Prodigal Son we see the father welcoming back the son without the need for propitiation, he didn't need to punish the elder son to accept the prodigal one back.

Also if the propitiation is to be paid to God then God is hurting Himself to pay Himself and that just doesn't add up to me.

I've honestly always thought that they were both sort of "analogies" to help us explain what Christ did for us on the cross.

I've never understood why Jesus died, but it is possible that it is neither. God is not under the control of anything because He is the highest power. Therefore, why would he be obligated to make sure that something happens before He gets us back? If it is a ransom why can't he just storm in, take us back, and punish the bad guy? The ransom is for when kidnappers are too dangerous to fight and when their is a threat that they might kill the child before the child can be rescued, but isn't God greater than that? Then let's say it is the penalty one, why is God under the control of the price that needs to be paid? Doesn't He have the power to wave a fee in the name of forgiveness?

I think that death is simply the natural consequence of sin and sin is the natural consequence of not being with God. We choose to be with God, He helps us not sin, there is no death. Death and sin are just not being with God. And we still have moments of not being with God here on earth because of our choices, but since we ultimately choose God we ultimately get to live.

So why did Jesus die? Maybe to show us how much He loves us?

These are not so much as fully formulated opinions as wisps of thoughts I am attempting to comprehend.

Hmm, those are some interesting reflections Ragtag.

aragtaghooligan wrote:So why did Jesus die? Maybe to show us how much He loves us?

I believe the reason why Jesus had to die, in order for us to be saved, was because of how serious sin is in God's eyes. In the OT, if someone sinned, they couldn't be forgiven until they made a sacrifice to God. That sacrifice had to be a lamb...a perfect lamb without a spot or a blemish. A lamb had to die. Maybe it doesn't make sense, but that's what God required. Jesus became that sacrificial Lamb... He was the only one without sin, the only One God could accept, He was the perfect Lamb. He became the sacrifice for our sins.

@Ragtag I think God did storm in and take back the hostages, it's called the Harrowing of Hades. When Christ died and paid our ransom Satan accepted it but because Satan accepted a human that had never sinned Satan was undone. There is a sermon given by St. John Chrysostom on Pascha (Easter) that explains this better than I could: https://oca.org/fs/sermons/the-paschal-sermon

"It was embittered, for it was overthrown. It was embittered, for it was fettered in chains. It took a body, and met God face to face. It took earth, and encountered Heaven. It took that which was seen, and fell upon the unseen.

O Death, where is your sting? O Hell, where is your victory? Christ is risen, and you are overthrown."

Miss Friendship wrote:There are many different aspects to view Jesus's death on the cross for sinners. A very popular one I have heard (Ray Comfort uses this in witnessing) is that Jesus came and bore the penalty for our sins. We sinned and He took the consequences.

But there is also the view of a "ransom." By sinning we are enslaved to Satan. It's like a Kidnapper who kidnaps a child, and then calls the parents and says, "I kill the child unless you give me a million dollars." That money is a "ransom."

So did Jesus bear the penalty of our sins, or did He by his death, pay our ransom?

There are verses to support both sides of this. Also, this doesn't have to be a debate, as much as a discussion.

Both.
We went to the enemy camp and joined them, and they turned on us. To be brought back into the Army, they had to sever our arms AFTER the ransom was paid. But then Someone said they'll get their arms hacked up for you- for free.
Boom. Welcome back, soldier.

I don't understand your analogy

Eleventh Doctor wrote:I don't understand your analogy

Sometimes the polite thing to do is just smile and nod.

No, Dredge often goes off on non-sequiturs or uses unclear analogies that derail conversations. That is impolite of him, I am going to let him know that he should stay on topic or clarify his analogies.