The Church Walking With the World

[Miss Friendship]

Anywhere where God reigns supreme is His domain and Kingdom.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Okay, can we flesh out that definition a bit? Maybe give some examples of places where God does and does not reign supreme?

[Miss Friendship]

God reigns in Heaven. God reigns in a completely surrendered heart of a person.

He does not reign where Self is ruling, or Sin, or Satan.

How do I get more clear?

[Eleventh Doctor]

So would you say that you have completely surrendered your heart to God? And that you never sin?

It's unclear to me how you make the distinction of where self, sin, and satan rule; much of it seems circular. For example you say that rock music is ruled by the devil because rock music is of the world and rock music is of the world because rock music is ruled by the devil. Likewise civil government is of this world because it wants power and while I agree with you that is usually the case there can also be some good that comes from the state. I mean they do generally provide law and order after all, isn't that a good thing?

But to go back to an example I've given elsewhere, if I advocate change in the government to stop the slave trade is self, sin, or satan really reigning there?

[Miss Friendship]

Sadly, I haven't always been and its a constant daily battle of dying to my Self. "Taking up my cross" Yes I still sin but the more I become on harmony with God, the more I can live in victory. We shouldn't always have a "I am such a sinner" attitude. After all Jesus says "Be ye therefore perfect"

Is God reigning supreme in the World? No. I would say wealth, pleasure, fame and success are gods much higher and more served. So again, I wonder at going through an earthly government to stop these things when our Almighty God wants us completely under His command. Yes, I do think God can use us in wicked places to change things for the better, but always being aware that the government is the other Kingdom. About the government, it's here for a reason, we have it mentioned in scripture, but I believe God never intended for us to get involved there.

Is God reigning completely in you is a better question. Here is something I have learned, God sometimes calls us to do things that we didn't really plan on. So our primary goal is to follow wherever He leads, not question if our chosen work is right.

[Eleventh Doctor]

So is God reigning supreme in you then since it isn't an "unconditional surrender"?

I've never argued that God is reigning supreme in the world. And I've always said that we should not put our trust in earthly governments. But that doesn't mean we can't use it for good, as you yourself say. Also I don't understand your interpretation, the government is bad because God never intended for us to get involved there and God never intended for us to get involved there because it's bad; this is called circular reasoning. Again I cannot stress enough that I do not believe in putting our trust in the government only that we can be involved in helping others.

We should practice discernment though, we need to make sure that it is God leading us.

[aragtaghooligan]

Perhaps no one reigns ish in present tense but God reigns because of the future. For now, both God and Satan are at work and people get to choose who they follow but one day God's justice will be fully laid out. At that time the Kingdom will be there in full but for now maybe the kingdom is wherever God is at work and we can see this wherever love is (1 John 4:7 "Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.") and wherever there is not love Satan may be at work and that is of the world. But I would caution this- 1 John 4:18 " There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love." While I appreciate your views Miss Friendship and your valiant efforts to avoid being of the world I feel like the most important thing is to love and not to be too afraid that we do anything wrong because we will be forgiven we don't need to live stressing out about everything we do wondering if it is of the world or not. Someone once told me "If I am mistaken I hope to be mistaken in something resembling love."

-- Fri Jun 26, 2015 7:02 pm --

And one other thing I know some think condemning the world's ways is love because the world's ways lead to death but 1 John 4: 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. and also 1 John 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. Jesus never lectured when he told people to go and sin no more they knew that it was because his way had healing and love. Just telling someone that there way isn't good won't convince them they need to know they are love. I rarely feel loved by church people. I am so dissapointed in the church and I want to see less obsession over worldly sin and more love.

[Miss Friendship]

So is God reigning supreme in you then since it isn't an "unconditional surrender"?

Unconditional surrender is more than constant obedience. It's a choice you make everyday.

Also I don't understand your interpretation, the government is bad because God never intended for us to get involved there and God never intended for us to get involved there because it's bad; this is called circular reasoning.

Took me a full minute to figure out what you said. So what's wrong with circular reasoning?

While I appreciate your views Miss Friendship and your valiant efforts to avoid being of the world I feel like the most important thing is to love and not to be too afraid that we do anything wrong because we will be forgiven we don't need to live stressing out about everything we do wondering if it is of the world or not. Someone once told me "If I am mistaken I hope to be mistaken in something resembling love."

I'm afraid I've left rather a negative impression about my response toward "love." I strongly believe that love is part of the gospel. But being the reactionary sort of person I am, I tend not to bring Love up because of the common gospel out there that God is all about "love" and we can live as we like, because we will automatically be forgiven. When really the Christian Life is the way less traveled by. The path is straight and narrow, we die daily to Self and Sin, to carry our cross, to remain separate from the World, and I see so many Christians today completely ignoring these aspects of the Christian life. This is why I bring this up so frequently.

I rarely feel loved by church people. I am so dissapointed in the church and I want to see less obsession over worldly sin and more love.

This is very sad indeed. But you do have a treasure if the Church you attend is obsessed with staying free from worldly sin. This is something that is lacking in many churches. Although it might not seem this way, working hard at staying free from sin is love. Because Sin is what separates us from God, and to not bring this up in Church, would be rather careless and hateful. Teaching what the scripture says, though hard, is loving.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Circular reasoning is wrong because the statement has no outside support. To give a more simplistic example, what if I answered all of your arguments with the phrase. Miss Friendship is wrong because Miss Friendship is wrong; that's the kind of argument you're making. God never intended for us to be involved for government why? Because the government is bad. But why is the government bad? Because God never intended for us to be involved in government. But why? Because it's bad of course. It just goes around and around.

[Miss Friendship]

Hmmm, good point. Earthly government is part of Kingdom that opposes God's Kingdom. That break up this reasoning?

[Eleventh Doctor]

A little bit but does earthly government always oppose God's kingdom? No matter what? I mean what about when the Roman Emperors financed the building of churches and monasteries?

[Miss Friendship]

I'd call that the "World trying to join hands with the Church."

Do you believe in separation of Church and state?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I generally do yes, I think in most cases it is better for the Church to be independent of the state but in some cases I think it's fine. I don't like giving hard and fast rules for non dogmatic issues.

[DredgeAmazing]

"Peter, do you love me?....feed my sheep." X3

.

[aragtaghooligan]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

God saved us. We are saved sin or not. We put sin to death because the more we grow with God the more we realize his way is better but we shouldn't have to live in stress about whether or not we are narrow path walking right.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Ragtag normally I agree with you but I'm pretty sure Jesus had several parables that talk about how we need to be walking the narrow path. Now I would stress that we should be more concerned with our own walk rather than trying to judge everyone else on the path but we should be on the path.

[Blitz]

That is why I find talking so much about 'love' dangerous. What is love? What you are saying is love is not love. "If you love me keep my comandments". Ring a bell? Your argument is self collapsing. We should be obsessed about obeying God. Why? Because we love. Sin hurts everything therefore if we love we strive not to sin.
Does the government always oppose Christianity.... No. If the government was made wholly of Christians would it oppose Christianity? The kingdom of the earth is very variable. Things change constantly. Some are neutral.

[aragtaghooligan]

ok well whenever I obsess about not sinning I end up hating myself and getting lost in a sea of depression and anxiety and when my friends do it they become judgmental and mean so sorry for trying to find a better way to live.

[Blitz]

Which is why love is a process. That also reminds us that God love us always.

[TigerShadow]

ok well whenever I obsess about not sinning I end up hating myself and getting lost in a sea of depression and anxiety and when my friends do it they become judgmental and mean so sorry for trying to find a better way to live.

I think the problem is that you're talking about trying to "not sin"—trapping oneself into an endless spiral of self-loathing at the inevitable failure to keep up regimented avoidance of certain behaviors—rather than talking about loving God, which is Blitz's point. When we begin from a place of love for God and awe at who He is and what He has done for us, we want to obey Him, and we want people in our lives to keep us accountable for our actions.