Does God Hate Sin?

[Miss Friendship]

God's word should always come first, that includes Scripture and Jesus--God's word made flesh. So we should compare our lives, our churches, our supposed encounters always to the Bible. Nothing would work without it, and everything can with it.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Where does the Bible say that? How did the Church function and Christians live their lives before there was a Bible? I am in no way downplaying the importance of the Bible btw.

[Miss Friendship]

Say what? Jesus God's word made flesh? John 1:14

We know by Hebrews 4:12 that the Bible by itself has power to convict and change.

And 2 Timothy 3:16 says all scripture was breathed by God. So I think we know we can trust God's word to be accurate in our understanding.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I'm not denying Jesus is God's word made flesh.

Hebrews 4:13 "And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account." The Bible is not a He, this is talking about Christ not the Bible.

2 Timothy 3:17 "that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." Scripture is necessary to be complete and thoroughly equipped but this does not speak to the exclusivity of Scripture to being equipped. In fact when that passage was written there was no New Testament, so is this verse saying that the Old Testament is enough?

[Miss Friendship]

The Bible is the written word of God. The truth it proclaims is alive and real.

The NT was being written. Why couldn't it have been speaking about the truth they were sharing? They were composing God's word, and alluding to the fact that it has the power to make man complete.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I'm not denying that, just saying the verse you quoted wasn't about the Bible.

That's your interpretation and that does fit with your view on how the Bible was written, I just disagree with that. But I do agree that Scripture has the power to make man complete but that doesn't exclude those other things I talked about, each part is essential.

[aragtaghooligan]

Hey sorry to interrupt your conversation about how to interpret the bible and the importance of the church and blabbitybloopity blop a very important conversation that you have all the time but is still important and I'm not down playing it one bit, but I'm really curious about the actual topic of this thread and am searching for a more concise answer than the ones presented so far.

Eleventh you seem to be saying you can't describe God's emotions toward sin but I would really love if you would try to describe them as best as you currently comprehend them. I don't think we should use our limited understanding as an excuse not to talk. Understanding and knowing God is important lets keep trying to understand him as best as we can?

Miss Friendship: you talk about how God has enough of sin at times and destroys it and sinners and will someday destroy again with fire. This made me think of an idea that came up again and again in the articles that the Eleventh gave me to read about the Orthodox Church's view on Christ's death and resurrection. I'm paraphrasing and they were complex articles so I might be getting them wrong, maybe I didn't understand, but they seemed to suggest that God's love is a river of fire which refines those who understand it as love and love it back (those who believe) but burns those who have turned from it. All God is, is love, but to those who have rejected his beautiful ways it seems like hate. I wonder if that may shed some light on your examples of God's behavior towards sin? But I'm still curious what the Eleventh thinks God thinks about sin. If you really aren't sure that's ok. Often all we have to offer is "I don't know." And that level of honesty can be beautiful. Sorry if my contribution was unhelpful.

[Eleventh Doctor]

That is a good explanation, God shares His love with all regardless of our actions. Our reactions to that love though affects how we perceive and experience that love. To those that return that love it is a refining love that removes the sin from our life and makes us able to enjoy communion and begin to know God. But to those that reject that love in their lives they experience that love the way we experience wrath and anger. God is dispassionate and unchanging, He doesn't just suddenly have enough of us and decide to burn up sinner and sin, that is just how sinners and sin experience His immutable love.

You are wise to say that all we often have to offer is "I don't know" honesty of that sort is indeed beautiful you have made a beautiful contribution. Let me respond in kind by saying, these are not my own thoughts but pale reflections of the wisdom of others I have read, others who have glimpsed the river of fire.

[Miss Friendship]

Yes ragtag, thanks for contributing to this debate. That illustration of the river was a good one.

I believe God hates sin because of the many many examples we have throughout the history in the OT of sinners who were brought into condemnation at times for even what we would consider the smallest of crimes. I think God was trying to teach that sin really is most terrible plague that exists because its what separates us from Him. And if God did not hate sin, I don't believe He would have given up His very own Son. But God loved us so much, and freed us from that sin by giving us His son to bear the penalty of sin for us. I'm not sure if He would have done this had He no hate for sin.

[DredgeAmazing]

Of course he does! But certain sins really get the title of "abomonation":
Homosex, lust, etc.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Eating lobsters

[Spoon]

Not to mention lending with interest or sleeping with a woman on her period. The abominations listed in the Bible are vast; it's almost useless to define them as such when we've all done a number.

Do people believe in degrees of sin here? Because that's the feeling I get when someone points out the 'abomination' clause.

-- Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:28 pm --

Yes. To love righteousness means to hate sin. In the same way if you love children, you hate abortion.

Pretty bold statement. Are you saying that those who have had an abortion do not love children the way you think they should?

[Miss Friendship]

I tend to be bold, although I am not sure what is exactly bold about this logical statement . I am not saying someone who has had an abortion cannot love children if they have repented for their sin, but if you truly loved children and realized murder is sin, you could not abort. Although I do know many women are lied to and almost forced to have abortions and some of them change their mind when they realize it's really a baby. But abortion doctors and those who promote it ? Do you think they love children or are more concerned with not overpopulating the earth?

[Spoon]

I've honestly never talked with someone who got an abortion for fear of overpopulating the earth. We must be talking to different people.

Yours is an opinion, as such you cannot define it as fact. Not everyone believes abortion is murder or sin.

What are these situations where many women are forced into abortions?

[Miss Friendship]

I was talking about the behind the scenes people who built the abortion clinics in the first place. But I should get references on that.

How is abortion not murder may I ask?? A deliberate planned "killing of life." This isn't an opinion, it's a logical fact.

I have friends who have protested at abortion clinics and succeeded in changing some girls' minds. They said often it was the parents pushing for an abortion, or the boyfriend, or doctor...

[TigerShadow]

For people to believe that abortion is the end of a life requires that they believe that the unborn child is a life, which pro-choice activists have been attempting to disprove for years. Science is proving their argument to be less and less tenable, but the fact remains that many on the street who support abortion rights pointedly refer to it as "a clump of cells" or "a fetus" to dehumanize it. (Seems to only happen when the baby is unwanted, but that's none of my business.) They don't see it as murder because they don't see the thingeing destroyed as a living creature.

[Spoon]

On a separate note, the Donohue-Levitt hypothesis suggests that legalized abortion in the 1970's explains a significant crime decline in the 1990's. Below is the original, but Google is full of shorter and simpler explanations.

http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/ ... ed2001.pdf

Whether you buy into the theory or not, it's a pretty interesting idea. Unwanted kids or those born into situations where the parents cannot properly care for them are more likely to become criminals, so legalized abortion can change the figures substantially.

[aragtaghooligan]

All I want to say on the topic of abortion is please I am begging you, PLEASE be careful how you speak out against it that you not condemn a woman who had one for I have friends who for many reasons felt compelled to have one and were eaten up with guilt and despair about it after and it was just horrid. No one has said anything yet, Miss Friendship, for example, made allowance for forgiveness but I have seen bad stuff elsewhere so please just be careful.

[Spoon]

Good point, but I believe Friendship's idea is that if you've had an abortion, you only love children if you've repented for that sin. Which yes, could come across very badly to those who have had one.