Does God Hate Sin?

[Miss Friendship]

I'd say God's nature is part of Himself, so calling that perverted is basically calling God perverted.

Tiger said it.

[TigerShadow]

I...think you're still missing the point. =/ Eleventh is saying that hatred, in and of itself, is a perversion of God's nature, and therefore, since God cannot be perverted, He cannot feel hatred and thus does not hate sin.

[Miss Friendship]

I did miss the point. Although that doesn't change the fact that I disagree with Eleventh's evaluation of God not hating sin. I am amazed one can actually read scripture and come away with that viewpoint.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Sin does keep us from God but that does not mean God hates that sin. I'm going to post a pretty sizable quote from the Philokalia, a monastic text, and specifically writings from St. Anthony around 270 AD. Hopefully this explains my position far better than I ever could.

God is good, dispassionate, and immutable. Now someone who thinks it reasonable and true to affirm that God does not change, may well ask how, in that case, it is possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good and showing mercy to those who honor Him, and as turning away from the wicked and being angry with sinners. To this it must be answered that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, for to rejoice and to be offended are passions; nor is He won over by the gifts of those who honor Him, for that would mean He is swayed by pleasure. It is not right that the Divinity feel pleasure or displeasure from human conditions. He is good, and He only bestows blessings and never does harm, remaining always the same. We men, on the other hand, if we remain good through resembling God, are united to Him, but if we become evil through not resembling God, we are separated from Him. By living in holiness we cleave to God; but by becoming wicked we make Him our enemy. It is not that He grows angry with us in an arbitrary way, but it is our own sins that prevent God from shining within us and expose us to demons who torture us. And if through prayer and acts of compassion we gain release from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him to change, but that through our actions and our turning to the Divinity, we have cured our wickedness and so once more have enjoyment of God’s goodness. Thus to say that God turns away from the wicked is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind.

[aragtaghooligan]

woah did you guys have this whole same conversation somewhere else? I'm so confused. Although I have to sort of stand with Tiger here in asking the 11th, if God does not hate sin what does He think and feel about it? Especially when he sees how it hurts His children.

[Miss Friendship]

(I asked Eleventh to move this conversation from the gay debate and make a new thread)

@ Eleventh OK, so you don't believe God hates anything. When was it when we were just discussing Proverbs 6:16 about the seven things God hates. And Romans 1:18 says, For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

So can't we agree God does have emotions of wrath and hate?

[Eleventh Doctor]

We can agree that God's nature is described in those verses using the closest human equivalent we know but not that God is ruled by such emotions as hate and wrath and is unable to control those feelings.

[Miss Friendship]

So hate and wrath is more powerful than God since He would be unable to control them?

[aragtaghooligan]

He seems to be suggesting just the opposite that while God may be able to feel those things those feelings don't rule and control Him

[Eleventh Doctor]

Hate and wrath as human emotions are visceral reactive emotions that are a loss of control and emotions. To say the same of God would not be right. I'm saying God does not feel those because He does not suffer from uncontrollable passions.

[Miss Friendship]

Suppose God's hate is different than our hate and is controllable. Who says hate is automatically uncontrolled?

Hate is defined as an intense and passionate dislike of something. I don't see uncontrolled in that. And I believe that is exactly the way God feels about sin. So the "love the sinner, hate the sin" is a wrong quote. Ok, I agree. I think that although God does love people, there comes a point when He can no longer put up with the sinners. For example, He flooded the whole world to get rid of the sinners. (The sinful nature still remained in Noah and his sons) And in a few years, He is going to do the same again.... by fire.

Also if the Bible got the interpretation wrong, than what does it mean when it says God hates? So God isn't a good communicator?

[Eleventh Doctor]

We are unable to describe God's infinite nature with our finite language.

[Miss Friendship]

We are unable to describe God's infinite nature with our finite language.

I think that's limiting God.

Ok, well what about things God has done throughout history that point toward how He feels about sin?

[Eleventh Doctor]

How is it limiting God to say that His infinite nature in inexpiable? That is the complete opposite of limiting God.

The accounts of those things need to be considered in the same way, as finite words describing the actions of an infinite God.

[Miss Friendship]

So what you are saying is, God is so infinite, that nothing He possibly does will be in the same way that we hear it. It's an excuse to ignore everything God really did communicate to us.

If we explain the Bible away as not good enough to represent God, than what do we have left? Are we even certain we know God loves us? That could have been falsely communicated as well. We might as well take nothing in the Bible literally if we doubt the writers, and doubt God's ability to put what He wants into a book.

[Eleventh Doctor]

It's a challenge to get to know God as more than just words in a book. To experience Him and to grow closer to Him. The Bible is the beginning not the end of our faith. God loves us, in a way we can't understand. For now we see in a glass dimly but soon we shall see face to face.

[Miss Friendship]

So our main way to find out about God should be our personal time with Him? Suppose you hear from God about something that contradicts something another guy says he heard from God. Who's right?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, I think the primary way to discover truths about God is through revealed encounters. Who's right, the age old question and why I think it's important to be part of a tradition that's more than just you and another guy so that you can compare the revealed truths of past Christians, Scripture, and the Apostolic Traditions. Discernment plays a big role but it only works in community with the past and present Church.

[Miss Friendship]

So Church, Apostolic teachings and revealed encounters are over the Bible? Do you know what a dangerous position that is?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I didn't say that. I said they all work together to create a complete picture. Any one without the others would be dangerous.