Is Lying Always Wrong?

[aragtaghooligan]

Miss friendship, I'm confused with why you keep bringing up Ananias. Isn't he the one who was killed for lying about donating money? That's not lying for a good cause it is very different.

[Miss Friendship]

Donating money isn't a good cause? He did donate money, but not everything he said he did. And he was struck dead for what we call today a "half truth" or a white lie....so I think the NT is clear. Lying is always wrong, no exceptions.

[aragtaghooligan]

But the lie was to protect himself and let himself have more money. The lie wasn't for a good cause.

[Miss Friendship]

OK, yes, I don't think his lie in any case was right, but the fact is he was killed for it. I don't think we can take a sin and say "well since we are using stealing to feed the poor" it makes it right. Sin is still wrong. Yes maybe those rich people should be giving, but it would be wrong for us to steal their wealth even for a good cause. The same goes with lying. I don't see any allowance made for "lying for a good cause."

[aragtaghooligan]

All I'm saying is it doesn't make sense to use him as an example for your point. If Robin Hood were real and God killed Robin Hood then I'd be interested. But Ananias is a different sort of case all together. I'm still out on whether I believe it is ok to lie to protect someone else, I'm leaning towards what I believe bout killing yes to protect someone else if it comes to that but not to protect yourself. That is in theory though I probably would lie in reality because I'd be scared.

[Woody]

But Robin Hood is real:

[Mr. Yorp]

Robin hood was probably real, but that picture isn't proof.

Why did Jesus deceive people?

[Woody]

The picture is a joke, Mr. Yorp. It's from a show called Doctor Who(the show Eleventh Doctor got his name from.) It's a time travel show, and the picture is a promo pic for an episode they with Robin Hood.

And did I say Jesus deceived people? I'm fairly certain he didn't, but I will think it over to see if I can think of an instance. I do, however, believe that Samuel was given express orders from God to deceive King Saul, as I mentioned earlier in this debate.

[Mr. Yorp]

Luke 24:28
And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went:and he made as though he would have gone further.

[aragtaghooligan]

My mom just told me a cool story. She was raised in the Dutch Christian Reformed Church and said this conversation came up a lot in those circles because of their parents' experiences in the war in Holland. Most people my mom knows say yes lie to protect others, but every once in a while someone would take the opposite stance and when they did they would bring up this story:

Once there was a woman who hid a Jew but believed that lying was wrong. The Jew was hiding under her floor boards under her table with a long table cloth over it. The Germans came and asked her are you hiding a Jew and she said yes. They asked her where and she said under the table. They looked under the table cloth, did not see anything, got made at her for teasing them and left. This story suggests that God will protect you if you do not lie because you believe it is obedience to Him. That said, I still think it is ok to lie to protect another. Just thought it was a cool story to share.

[DredgeAmazing]

I think it's not only okay but the right thing to lie to protect the innocent and persecuted. Since we're talking about World War Two here is an example from my tradition. http://jewishcurrents.org/march-31-moth ... paris-4518

Mother Maria of Paris was a Russian nun who lived in Paris during WW2 and helped many Jews flee the Nazi persecution. She would give them false baptism certificates from her parish so they had paperwork saying they were Christians so the Nazis wouldn't arrest them.

Why not tell the truth and fight to defend? It's a lost cause, but a cause nonetheless.

[Miss Friendship]

OK everyone, is stealing ever right in particular cases? Suppose the only way you could keep your family from starving was by stealing some food. Or Jews....whatever you prefer. Would you do it? I am asking Woody, ragtag, Eleventh, Tiger, Yorp...anyone involved in this conversation who believes its OK to lie. I want an honest answer about how far of protecting your loved ones goes. So far its OK to kill and lie if you are protecting. So what about stealing??

[aragtaghooligan]

My grandfather lived on a house boat in Holland and the Nazis forced his father to use it to cart around the things they stole from Jewish people and my grandpa (when he was a boy) stole a coin set that the Nazis had stolen from the Jews. My sister still has it today. Personally I think that was wrong because it didn't serve any purpose to save anyone or anything, but I do think it is interesting that we seem to drop our morals when it comes to a "bad" person. Oh we can steal if it is from a "bad" person. No big deal. I think the fact that our brains does this is dangerous. I also think we should aim not to steal, but if it was steal or watch my loved one die i probably would steal. I am curious though to see what others say.

[TigerShadow]

To protect my loved ones or innocent people? Yes, I would steal, especially if I was stealing from a corrupt government that led people into desperate situations through its own incompetence or greed. It would be a hard decision, and I would certainly feel guilty, but I'd rather have a mark against me than watch my family, friends, or anyone else die without doing anything about it. One could argue that you're being unfaithful to God by disobeying His commands, but aren't you also being unfaithful to God by not valuing life enough to do something to protect it? It's not an easy situation.

Miss Friendship, I understand why you're trying to take the high road, but the thing is, you really don't know what you'd do in that situation until you're in it. It's not this easy "well, I'd always do what's right!" kind of thing. We live in a world where people are or have been in situations in which moral lines are blurred so as to be almost unrecognizable; to suggest that they can still find some kind of black and white "good vs evil" answer to their problem seems kind of disrespectful to what they're going through or have been through.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I wouldn't steal, to do so would be wrong. Juxtapositionaly whoever has and does not give to the starving is sinning too.

[Mr. Yorp]

Is picking corn from a field and eating it, that is not yours, that you did not plant, stealing?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, unless the planters left it there for you or hungry people in general.

[Mr. Yorp]

Why did the deciples take corn while travelling? Jesus did not say anything about it? Even the Pharisees said nothing about it.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Can you cite some verses and I'll respond to that?

[aragtaghooligan]

Or David, didn't he steal food from the temple?