Tradition

[jehoshaphat]

How important is tradition when speaking about faith and doctrine?

[Paula]

I think it's important to a certain point, but when tradition just becomes something you do at a certain time or a certain place it loses it's meaning and becomes useless. Also we shouldn't let tradition get in the way of growing in our relationship with God.

[Eleventh Doctor]

What are some ways tradition can get in the way of our relationship with God?

[Paula]

There's obviously a lot of different view points here, but as you already know I think the Holy Spirit should be the one to lead church services. A more clearer example would be someone, who has been going to church their whole lives. As they go through the traditions of the service, it becomes more of a motion, and sometimes(not always) their hearts may not be in whatever the tradition of a certain church has/does. So I think we should take caution with traditions.

[TigerShadow]

I think tradition could get in the way of your relationship with God if you're more focused on what the tradition is and how it is done than what the tradition means, or if you insist that tradition must be followed a certain way or a person cannot be a true believer. This was part of the problem with the Pharisees, who were more concerned with maintaining the old ways of the Jewish faith than with what those things were supposed to mean.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I very much agree that if you are simply following the motions then traditions become meaningless.

Paula, a clarification, something I've wondered about Spirit led church services. What happens if two people feel led by the Spirit to different things?

[Paula]

I very much agree that if you are simply following the motions then traditions become meaningless.

Paula, a clarification, something I've wondered about Spirit led church services. What happens if two people feel led by the Spirit to different things?

We've debated about this before, and just went around in circles. I believe that if two people are led by the Spirit to two different things, one of them, if not both, are not hearing from God. As to how to know...I have no clue. The ways of God are so complex that no human alive could figure them out. So if the, "How do you know it's God" debate comes up you know my views.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I don't wish to bring up that whole debate again I just wanted to bring it up to say, that's where Tradtion comes into play. If things are more free form I think you run into problems but again not looking to start that whole debate again.

[Paula]

Yes, I agree, but would you want a church with tradition and absolutely no Holy Spirit? If there's problems like two people claiming they've heard from God then shouldn't we just give the problem to God?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I don't think it's an either or type situation. I think God is a God of order after all.

Clarification, how would you just give the problem to God?

[Paula]

If God is a God of order than a church service led by the Holy Spirit would have order. As the Holy Spirit is God.

Pray about it. We should never worry(or get upset about a problem for this matter) about anything, because God has everything under control.
1Peter 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Indeed the Holy Spirit is God but 1 Corinthians 13 itself says that there needs to be limits on speaking in tongues or prophesying in church. And as you've said people can think they're being led by God when they're not, so that could lead to a church service without order.

So to clarify some of the specific logistics, would you stop a church service if two people felt led to two different things and pray about which was right?

[Paula]

Can you please specify the verse(s) that you are referring to? I agree, but if one is truly led by the Spirit I believe there wouldn't be any problems (like the being led by the Spirit or not).

If it was serious enough for both of them to bring it up then yes I would.

[Eleventh Doctor]

How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret. But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God. Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

These are the verses I'm referring to, sorry it was 14 not 13.

But to me these verses seem to be saying that there are limits even if one feels led by the Spirit. For example, no more than three each in turn. If there isn't an interpreter then keep silent.

You say if one is truly led by the Spirit, well I agree if we were all truly led by the Spirit then there wouldn't be a need for these Traditions but we aren't all led by the Spirit perfectly. I agree we should strive for that but until then we needs Traditions.

[Paula]

Oh okay, that's fine.

If one is truly led by the Spirit I don't think God would lead more than three people. Another thing I'm confused about is the interpreter and tongues part. Is it referring to speaking in tongues?

I see where you're coming from, but if we just have Traditions how can we strive to be led by the Spirit?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes, it's saying that if you're speaking in tounges to the church there must be an interpreter.

I'm saying it's not an either or thing, you can be led by the Spirit but use Traditions to discern and confirm that it really is the Spirit.

[jehoshaphat]

I think that Tradition is supposed to bring order and is supposed to elevate our minds. Also I was more hoping for opinions on how tradition should be used when discussing doctrine. The Catholic Church relies heavily on tradition to develope doctrine. We use both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition to dictate our beliefs.

About being led by the Spirit, I would say there is a place for it in the church but there is also a place for Tradition. I am a part of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal and therefore I know about the Holy Spirit and Spirit led things. For Mass there is very little Spirit led because of the nature of Mass and how it has been revealed to us. It has an order and the order is important.

[Paula]

Yes, it's saying that if you're speaking in tounges to the church there must be an interpreter.

I'm saying it's not an either or thing, you can be led by the Spirit but use Traditions to discern and confirm that it really is the Spirit.

I agree with that.

[Miss Friendship]

I think there is a point here that hasn't been mentioned when it comes to tradition. Tradition, in a church, usually comes from a source...an interpretation of the scriptures. But I also agree tradition can become a danger after so many generations...its easy to just slide along with it. And again, tradition also holds a church together. I think an answer is to compare all the customs and rituals with scripture, knock out the ones that have no real meaning, and then explain to the next generation, why we have the tradition that we do.

Personally, I want order in my church service. This is one thing Mandy and I don't agree on. Her church would be more like Paula's... And I have to say while "listening to the Holy Spirit" can paint a very attractive picture, often it doesn't turn out. Someone can easily claim what the Holy Spirit has been telling them, and that starts becoming the focus instead of the Bible. Often disagreeing with the Bible as well.

But I would like to learn more on this subject....

[Paula]

Personally, I want order in my church service. This is one thing Mandy and I don't agree on. Her church would be more like Paula's... And I have to say while "listening to the Holy Spirit" can paint a very attractive picture, often it doesn't turn out. Someone can easily claim what the Holy Spirit has been telling them, and that starts becoming the focus instead of the Bible. Often disagreeing with the Bible as well.

But I would like to learn more on this subject....

You have a lot of good points, but I'd have to disagree with you on one thing. If someone claimed that the Holy Spirit told them something that contradicted the Bible then it obviously wasn't from God. And again I'd have to point out that no one can know for sure(without God that is) if what a person claims is truly the Holy Spirit or not, unless it completely contradicts the Bible then it apparently wouldn't be from God.