Wealth and the Kingdom of the God

[TigerShadow]

Why is it important that God win? Because if He doesn't, we'd get no eternal life, no freedom from sin, no "well done, good and faithful servant"? Or because if He doesn't, the literal embodiment of righteousness and goodness would no longer be given His due? The point I'm making is the point you seem to be missing, that the Kingdom of God is about God, not about us.

Christ and his commands go together. I am sorry, but He said it, not I. So you can't blame me.

We can blame you for conflating your personal interpretations into the Word of God itself. We can blame you for making blanket statements about entire people groups. We can blame you for overstepping your bounds to make moral judgments about people you don't know.

Once again, this is your personal interpretation of what Jesus said. Other people see it differently, particularly those who believe in Christian liberty. Disagreeing with your interpretation does not a sin make.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Christ and his commands go together. I am sorry, but He said it, not I. So you can't blame me.

Him saying it and you interpreting it are two different things, we're trying to have a discussion about the interpretation of His teachings and you're not even entertaining the possibility that we can have a legitimate different interpretation than you.

But I can't agree that Jesus commands aren't important if the whole world agrees

No one here is asking you to say that, this is a strawman argument.

I don't want to judge....

Then don't

I don't want my rich friends to continue blindly ignoring Gods commands

Give us an example of a rich friend you have who is blindly ignoring God's commands

But I can't ignore scripture. Its truth. Jesus doesn't lie, so I can't either to please anyone..

Again, no one is asking you to ignore Scripture or to lie. This is another strawman.

We have to agree the Kingdom is important.

No one is saying otherwise. But Christ didn't say if you want to be part of my kingdom never invest money or never save for retirement. That is your interpretation of what He's saying, just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we are not Christians or that we are saying what Jesus said isn't important.

[Miss Friendship]

Did I judge any of you? I judged my rich friends that I do know. Got that? I KNOW them...personally.... I am not sure what kind of example you are looking for....

(By the way, I sure wish I knew how to "quote" like you all keep doing to what I write, but I don't know how to quote only a sentence at a time. If I knew, I would be quoting your words and replying!

Strawman? Every argument has a name with you, Eleventh.

For once and for all, I am not condemning retirement or savings account. I am pointing out the commands like "Sell and give" and "Woe to the rich" When I go witnessing is it judgmental to warn sinners of hell, or loving? If you get the impression I am judging for the sake of judging, its a wrong impression. Besides why is everyone so freaked out when it comes to the word "judging"??

I had a friend whos family left our church and eventually the faith as well. Whenever I was with her, she talked about she feels so "judged" every time she is around a church that disagrees with her. "You never seem to judge me, but your church? They are so judging!" She said. I would ask what people say, and normally is was only the way they "looked" at her. Imagination maybe? Now, don't automatically assume that because I told that story I am accusing you of imagining I am judging cause I am not..... *sighs and shakes her head*

I will say it now. There is only one person in the world who agrees exactly with Miss Friendship and that is Miss Friendship. To accuse me of saying I posses the only legitimate way of viewing things is false and not very kind. My goal was to lift up Christ's commands and discuss them...my opinions, please disregard if they don't agree with scripture.

*wonders how she ever got into this...remembers it started from an innocent comment "rich and increased" *

[TigerShadow]

Did I judge any of you? I judged my rich friends that I do know. Got that? I KNOW them...personally.... I am not sure what kind of example you are looking for....

Saying that the wealthy are not Christians by sole virtue of being wealthy is judgmental, whether you intended it to be or not. There is a difference between critiquing a lifestyle choice and condemning people en masse.

(By the way, I sure wish I knew how to "quote" like you all keep doing to what I write, but I don't know how to quote only a sentence at a time. If I knew, I would be quoting your words and replying!

The format is [#quote="name of person you want to quote"]-insert text-[/quote]—except that the hashtag I put at the beginning of the coding isn't actually there; I just put it there so you'd see the format. If you use the full editor, there's a whole toolbar at the top for various functions.

Strawman? Every argument has a name with you, Eleventh.

That's not something he made up; it's a name used to describe a logical fallacy. The Strawman Fallacy occurs when you take a person's argument, simplify it to the point where it's only tangentially related to what they said, and attack that. Its name comes from the fact that just as someone who beats up on a scarecrow can't claim themselves a boxer, someone who refutes a watered-down and inaccurate version of an argument never actually responded to anything that his or her opponent said.

Besides why is everyone so freaked out when it comes to the word "judging"??

Probably because you've been making harsh statements about people that you don't know and are then surprised when we get our hackles up. =/ Look, it's one thing to say "Hey, I love you and your problems are ultimately between you and God, but you need to take a look at this thing in your life, because I don't think that this is Biblical" and quite another to claim "People who live affluent lives cannot be Christians because of my personal interpretation of Scripture".

To accuse me of saying I posses the only legitimate way of viewing things is false and not very kind.

So is claiming that an entire social class is [censored]. You have been saying this whole time that you believe Jesus to be condemning wealth, but instead of understanding that we disagree, you are acting as though we are the ones who are interpreting His teachings incorrectly and that makes us bad people.

[Mandy]

Wow this is about the hottest debate I have ever seen! First of all, I don't believe Miss Friendship was saying every single person who has a lot of money is automatically going to hell. You all are just taking it way farther and making her statements into there big things way beyond what she was ever meaning to say. I want to let Miss Friendship hold her own but I couldn't help poking my head in for a second. Here's one more thing I wanted to say... "The only judging that's allowed these days is the judgement against judging."

[Eleventh Doctor]

I have to say that I really dislike that quote. Christ was pretty clear, judge not lest ye be judged. Each person stands or falls before his own master. We are not called to judge others.

Well, so I shouldn't judge the rich and wealthy, Spoon. But according to Jesus's words I shouldnt consider them a Christian either as they aren't following Christ.

Actually it's pretty clear that Miss Friendship is saying that the rich and the wealthy aren't Christian. Of course as we've asked before, rich by what standard? Most Americans are rich and wealthy compared to the rest of the world, so does that mean none of us are Christian?

[Miss Friendship]

Good point Mandy! Tiger and Eleventh *sob* I feel so judged by you! (Joking)

Could you two interpret what you believe Matthew 6:19-21 is saying? Or Matthew 6:24? It would help me a lot to understand what direction you are coming from. I have said what I believe, now its time to hear from you.

There are millions and millions of professing Christians....and I shouldn't judge them. I was convicted of that today in a way I wasn't yesterday. But I have a question for you. What do you call person who claims Christ's name yet by his life, its obvious he doesn't serve God anymore than the atheist down the street? When I talk about the rich, and judge, like I did. Its not their riches I am condeming but rather their reluctance to give, their reluctance to witness to the lost, the odd looks they get when you get passionate about Jesus. Its a whole lot of things that make me doubt....can you understand that?

I didn't say he made it up. Just that he knows the name of it. Thanks for explaining, that's what I had hoped you do.

So Tiger, for what reasons do you believe Jesus is not condemning the wealthy? I want to hear them...with an unbiased opinion if I can muster that.

[SirWhit]

You're generalizing again.

[Eleventh Doctor]

When I talk about the rich, and judge, like I did. Its not their riches I am condeming but rather their reluctance to give, their reluctance to witness to the lost, the odd looks they get when you get passionate about Jesus.

The problem is, like Mr. Whits End is saying, that you are generalizing about the rich. The rich can be giving, they can witness, and they can be passionate about Jesus. People who aren't rich can be reluctant about giving, witnessing, and be passionless about Jesus. You're using "rich people" as shorthand for not a real Christian. Those things you mentioned are bad and I interpret the verses you mentioned as being against the love of possessions and the necessity of giving to the poor. Those are not things unique to "rich" people.

[Miss Friendship]

Yes they can be...and when its obvious they do love Jesus, they can he as rich as they want for all i care. You said it yourself that those verses are talking about a love of money and possessions. So don't you agree there is a danger with riches that we must be aware about? I am not saying all "rich" are dammed like you keep throwing at me. I merely pointing out that the rich are in a danger that the poor are not. The rich who profess Christ, I might add. So how many really well off "rich" in American terms do you know that love Christ with everything?

Ever heard the story of the Russian Mennonites? That would bring out my point in real life....

[Eleventh Doctor]

A point that I've been trying to make it what does rich mean? We as Americans are enjoying a time of wealth unrivaled by any time in history or enjoyed by almost any other country on earth. If any other country in the world were added to America as the 51st state it would be the poorest state in America. A middle class American today enjoys more wealth and luxury than almost any noble a thousand years ago. Loving possessions is a danger, we agree on that. You just seem to pick some odd things to harp on; investments, fancy cars, mansions, and health care. What about internet, indoor plumbing, food, clean water?

I haven't heard of the Russian Mennonites, there you go with Russia again though

[Blitz]

I don't even technically have clean water.... Anyway... MF, does God even really need us to fight Satan? A nope. With one word he do away with Satan's very existence.
MF, you say that our giving should have to do with how much we have left. That is completely against what the Bible teaches. Giving is a form of worship. Therefore it is never about the quantity but the heart. If I give all my goods to feed the poor and have not charity it profits me NOTHING. Therefore it is not about the quantity.
You can never give enough. Never. You are far from giving up a lot. Have you left family behind, friends, comfort? Giving is more than just money, way more.
Your whole argument falls to "With God all things are possible." That is where God's ultimate grace comes in. No one on this earth can give enough. God doesn't even need it; He wants us to give. Amount means nothing.

[Mandy]

Well I do agree that we shouldn't be judging other people in a way, but I also think that we should test everything by the scriptures and see if what people are saying or doing agrees with the Bible. That's what the Bereans did and Paul commended them for it. God and His Word is the judge. You think we need to go through this long complicated process to understand the Bible, but I believe we can simply take it like it says it, and live according to that.

Blitz, what you said about God not needing us to fight the devil is absolutely ridiculous. (Sorry if that sounds mean, because I'm not meaning it to). But you need to understand that we are in a war today, a spiritual war. We have to fight against the enemy or he will be in control of us. If we are not constantly on guard against the devil, then he will suck us in. So, although God is all powerful, He doesn't just do all the work for us. He gives us a free choice: do we want to resist the devil or listen to him? Often, we are weak and can't fight his by ourselves but if we ask God to help us fight the devil, He will help us.

-- Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:13 pm --

Oh and by the way, Eleventh, I love that quote that I mentioned earlier. It's so true. You can judge people who judge all you want, but you can't judge anyone for anything else...

[Eleventh Doctor]

Well I do agree that we shouldn't be judging other people in a way, but I also think that we should test everything by the scriptures and see if what people are saying or doing agrees with the Bible. That's what the Bereans did and Paul commended them for it. God and His Word is the judge. You think we need to go through this long complicated process to understand the Bible, but I believe we can simply take it like it says it, and live according to that.

It is Christ not the Bible that is the Word of God, read in the right way and with the direction of good teachers the Bible can bring us to Christ.

As for the Bereans, let me ask you this, what Scripture where they checking when Paul was teaching to them?

Oh and by the way, Eleventh, I love that quote that I mentioned earlier. It's so true. You can judge people who judge all you want, but you can't judge anyone for anything else...

Is saying we shouldn't judge being judgey now? But in any case as you have said multiple times, we shouldn't judge. So if you're accusing us of judging you and Friendship for judging are you then saying you are in fact judging?

[Blitz]

I meant in the way that we are not necessary to defeat Satan. I do agree we should have to fight the Devil not that we are entirely essential.

The Bereans were testing Paul's teachings, not him. We are called to test certain things as specified in the Bible.

[Mandy]

I meant in the way that we are not necessary to defeat Satan. I do agree we should have to fight the Devil not that we are entirely essential.

Ok I guess I misunderstood you a bit. Sorry.

[Blitz]

No problem.

[Miss Friendship]

I haven't heard of the Russian Mennonites, there you go with Russia again though

They actually moved from country to country because of persecution. They were known as the Russian Mennonites cause that's where they prospered and grew wealthy and rich... and lukewarm... until severe hardship came to them. World War 1 and World War 2 slaughtered them... one bandit in particular was bitter against them because they were so wealthy when the Russians were poor. He went at them again and again... Some of the young boys began to abandon their convictions and fight back...its quite the story.

You just seem to pick some odd things to harp on; investments, fancy cars, mansions, and health care. What about internet, indoor plumbing, food, clean water?

You're right. We here in America are rich in so many ways... and I have a feeling our fate could be similar to theirs. The reason why I touched on investments is because its different than food and clean water. We aren't supposed to starve ourselves to death... rather do without things that we don't need, especially something that's designed to get us money without working for it! Investments aren't wrong, as I have been saying time and time again, why not invest in God's bank which is real treasure? And this is always what you say in response: "So this is a prosperity gospel?" So it seems you just all think to invest in the world is OK but then the very idea of investing in heaven would be joining a prosperity gospel!!? You guys are so mixed up....

I'm campaigning for "investing in heaven" and you try to turn around my words so it looks like a "prosperity gospel" so you can tell yourself what I am promoting is wrong. Why?

Blitz, why does Ephesians give us Spiritual Armour if we aren't supposed to use it?

[Blitz]

Did you just completely ignore my whole post?

It is important we use our spiritual armor. What I meant is that the battle is already won. Technically we don't even need to fight for the Kingdom.

[Miss Friendship]

I posted that before I saw yours.... ever consider that possibility?

Right. The Kingdom of God will win either way. But it's important we fight for it, or else we will be fighting for the other Kingdom.