Should Christians (Followers of Jesus) go to War?

[Miss Friendship]

This subject might have been touched on before, but I am new here and am therefore wanting to hear your thoughts. So, should followers of Jesus go to War?
I say "followers of Jesus" because the name "Christian" is so misused today. Many groups and denominations call themselves "Christians" but really give their authority to someone other than Jesus. For example, the Catholics--the Pope. The Mormons--Joseph Smith. Jehovah Witness's--the Watchtower. The Muslims--their prophet Muhammad.
Not sure if all these groups would call themselves "Christians", certainly not the Muslims, but just making it clear I'm wanting a response from those who seek to follow Jesus. I hope I'm making myself clear! Thanks.

PS. Please support your opinions with scripture...preferably what Jesus himself said on the subject.

[Eleventh Doctor]

For me it really comes back to the Beatitudes where Christ makes it clear that blessed are the peacemakers. The Beatitudes praise the humble virtues that the world usually scoffs. I think that says a lot about how we should avoid war.

Now as for your Christain cavet I'd respectfully ask that you not group Catholics with the rest of those groups. Knowing Catholics personally, some of them on here, I know that they are seeking to follow Christ just as much as you or me.

Great topic, I hope it generates a lively discussion.

[SirWhit]

Personally I would not want to go to war--but that's because I'm a wimp

But I agree with Eleventh on his point about the Beatitudes.

[Miss Friendship]

I agree. Also just to clarify, would it be sin to go to War, or you are just wanting to avoid it? There is a difference. And about your thoughts on Catholics I would say that it goes both ways. I would say some truly are saved in that church, but I also believe giving as much authority to the Pope as they have, many have been decieved. But I want to pursue the main subject here and not go off into rabbit trails. Looking forward to hearing more of what you think!

[Pound Foolish]

Many groups and denominations call themselves "Christians" but really give their authority to someone other than Jesus. For example, the Catholics--the Pope. The Mormons--Joseph Smith. Jehovah Witness's--the Watchtower. The Muslims--their prophet Muhammad.

Owch. Please realize, all the Pope does is give us insight into how to follow Jesus.

I love how you're limiting the true meaning of "Christian" though. To badly paraphrase C.S. Lewis, too many people are using Christian to mean someone who behaves like a Christian. Or, the way they think people ought to, that is, good. In which case the word "Christain" is threatened with becoming useless, because we already have "good"!
Now, the question at hand.
God tells us to be humble peacemakers, certainly. He also told the Jews to go to war. Even Jesus himself, though His purpose wasn't to be a war leader, smashed tables and made the temple marketplace a wreck. He saw no contradiction between being a peacemaker whenever possible and turning to violence when necessary. The whole Old Testament is chock full of war from beginning to end, much of it specifically ordered by God. If God doesn't approve of war when absolutely necessary, why did He call for it over and over?

[Eleventh Doctor]

@PF I think we need to realize that even though the OT is full of violence that violence is not good. For example in Exodus after the Red Sea when Pharoh and his army have been killed and the Israelis are celebrating their death Rabbinical tradition says that God did not accept that song. Likewise when the time comes to build the teme in Jerusalem David cannot build it because of the violent life he has lived. To move onto addressing MissFriendships point, yes I do think it is a sin. But I would probably define sin differently than you, rather than a legal term meaning an infraction against God sin for me refers to things that separate us from God. So killing in war, even if that war is justified you are still killing a human being who is made in Gods image who is an icon of Christ. Even under the justified circumstances that is bad and injures your relationship to God.

[Woody]

I would like to mention(in reference to AIO), the decision made by Alvin York(I could try to explain it here, but I don't think I could do the episode justice.) I do not believe it is wrong to go to war, especially if you are not the initiator. If someone is threatening human life, I really don't know of any Scripture that speaks against self defense. If there is a way to avoid violence and still come to a peaceful agreement, absolutely take that path. But, to quote Stoick the Vast(and yes, I realize it's not the Scriptural evidence you're looking for, MissFriendship, but I think it is true), "Men who kill without reason cannot be reasoned with." There are wars that cannot be avoided. And to defend the lives of innocents is not wrong in my eyes.

If you haven't yet, MissFriendship, I would highly suggest listening to Sergeant York Parts 1-4. It's a great true story of someone who struggled with the issue of Christians going to war, and I think it explains my position on the matter quite well.

Oh, and Doctor Who reference. "Demons run when a good man goes to war". Sorry, it was too good. *hides*

[Blitz]

Ha, I love that quote.

Evil needs to be stopped which necessitate people who don't want to kill to kill. Only a few people in the world can kill without remorse like American sniper, his name slipped me.

Even Jesus at the last supper told the disciples to be armed for protection against presumably bandits on the road. There is no way to reason with those men so defend. If a thief comes into your house, you aren't going to jump out with your arms open and say, "Shoot me, I'll die a martyr."

Sometimes it is needful not to defend ourselves and die as martyrs though.

[Miss Friendship]

I agree completely with Eleventh Doctor. War is a sin, always. When Jesus came to earth He started a new kingdom. He said, My kingdom is not of this world, if it were my followers would fight." John 18:36 Also, Those who take up the sword perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 And in Matthew 5:44 Love your enemies bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you... Its just sad to me how many Christians, who name the name of Christ, go to War and kill in direct conflict to what Christ taught. What other religion goes against its leaders so heavily?
PF, the Bible is not a flat bible. The New Testament is a new message that over rides the old. I am sure you don't believe other things from the old testament like killing a child if disrespectful to parents, or sacrificing animals to God.
PF, What happens if the Pope asks you to do something that would go against what Jesus taught? Who would you obey? As long as the Pope doesn't take any authority that belongs to Jesus, then I suppose Catholics shouldn't be classed with the list above.
Eleventh Doctor, I agree with your definition of sin. Something that separates us from God. I couldn't have said it better. but are you trying to say that you can disobey commandments in the Bible if you feel it doesnt separate you from God? Not quite understanding....

-- Sun Mar 22, 2015 2:26 pm --

Yes I have listened to Sergeant York. Blitz, why did Jesus rebuke Peter when he drew his sword that night in the garden? And about self defence.... If a man burst into our house and threatened to kill us, my dad would in no way shoot him. First of all, Jesus says, "love your enemies." I fail to see how is it loving to shoot them, especially since they would go to hell, and if they shot you, you would die with a clear conscience before God. And now, let's change it a bit, suppose a demon, who is ten times more powerful came into your home. Would you grab a gun when you saw it? Of course not, it would be of no effect, you would pray and cry out to God. So if you would pray when a Demon attacked, why not pray when a mere man threatened. That is one of the weapons God gave us. Prayer.
If Jesus gave his disciples the choice to fight back, why were all of them martyred, except John? Jesus taught a message foreign to the World when he came to earth, the Message of Non Resistance.

[Eleventh Doctor]

No I'm not saying that, I was speaking against an understanding of sin in a legalistic standpoint. That was all but thanks for letting me clarify.

As for the question about the pope, Catholics would say that the pope agrees with what Jesus taught but if we get into does he disagree with your interpretation of what Jesus taught we might have an issue.

[SirWhit]

Yes I have listened to Sergeant York. Blitz, why did Jesus rebuke Peter when he drew his sword that night in the garden? And about self defence.... If a man burst into our house and threatened to kill us, my dad would in no way shoot him. First of all, Jesus says, "love your enemies." I fail to see how is it loving to shoot them, especially since they would go to hell, and if they shot you, you would die with a clear conscience before God. And now, let's change it a bit, suppose a demon, who is ten times more powerful came into your home. Would you grab a gun when you saw it? Of course not, it would be of no effect, you would pray and cry out to God. So if you would pray when a Demon attacked, why not pray when a mere man threatened. That is one of the weapons God gave us. Prayer.
If Jesus gave his disciples the choice to fight back, why were all of them martyred, except John? Jesus taught a message foreign to the World when he came to earth, the Message of Non Resistance.

So you don't believe that you should defend yourself if someone attacks you?

[Eleventh Doctor]

I believe the question you need to answer Mr Whit is why did none of the Apostles fight back?

[Miss Friendship]

I suppose that's what we will have to leave it at. Catholics and I interupt scripture differently.
That's right, Mr. Whits End, as a Christian I follow after Jesus, the Prince of Peace, and He clearly taught to turn the other cheek, so I refrain from doing any harm to any individual attacking me. I am not saying I would not run, or reason with him, or put my life in front to protect others, but I could not kill him.

[SirWhit]

Oh I agree. I wouldn't kill him. But do you think all forms of self defense are wrong (say, a non-lethal move designed to get your attacker down long enough to run away)?

Say I'm attacked by a guy in an alleyway. Would it be wrong of me to use non-lethal self defense in an effort to get him down long enough to escape?

[TigerShadow]

-pops head in-

It's worth pointing out that you really don't know what you would do in that situation until you're in it. Theory and practice are not the same thing.

Blitz, why did Jesus rebuke Peter when he drew his sword that night in the garden?

That's not really a good example. Jesus wouldn't have His disciples fight to defend Him because He knew He had to be taken to be tried and crucified without resistance. I'm not saying that in any other situation Jesus would have called down some tanks and some Gatling guns and ordered the disciples to fire at will, but Jesus's refusal to violently resist a death He knew He had to die in order to take on the sins of humanity is not a good example to describe your perspective on violent resistance to an attacker in your home who is attempting to harm you and your family.

[Woody]

So, to put this in perspective, should we have just backed down in WWII? Let the Nazis just keep torturing and committing genocide against innocent Jews? Taking the principle of not killing an intruder in your home with malicious intent on a bigger perspective, that is what the result would be.

Until Jesus returns, there will always be evil in our world. And evil will always want to fight, and always will fight. Sometimes a fight is avoidable, oftentimes it is not. Hypothetically, let's say you see a man about to activate a bomb that will kill, let's say 20 people. You have a gun in your hand, and are too far away to stop him without using it. Is it right to let those 20 people die, when you have the ability to stop the killer?

[SirWhit]

Well in that situation I would not shoot the gun as I have no training with guns. But if I did, and was at a distance where I would be able to hit him, you bet your bunsen burner I would fire that gun!

[Miss Friendship]

TigerShadow..You're right, never have been in that situation before, so I don't know exactly what I would do. But at the same time, I want to know what I believe Jesus would want me to do. Mr. Whits End, Maybe you need to ask yourself the question, "Did Jesus really mean every word he said?" If He did, then it should be clear we obey what He says. And let me assure you, what Jesus says makes no sense to the rest of the world. Jesus told us we would be hated by all men for His name's sake.
Do you realize, Woody, how many Wars since Constantine have been fought in the name of "Christian" ? If Christians had always obeyed Jesus, and never fought, WW2 would not have happened. Hitler was fighting under the name of Christian, (I think I am getting my facts right anyway) And realize also that the Kingdom of Heaven is different from the Kingdom of this World. The World will always fight the World's problems. And if everyone believe what Jesus literally taught, there would be no wars in the first place.
Also you said, "should we have backed down in World War 2." Anyone who names the name of Christ should have refrained from going to War. For the rest of the United States, the Kingdom of this World, they fought, cause they didn't want a Tyrant ruling their country.
It's not like Christians stand by and do nothing either. We are instructed to pray for the leaders of our country. And I have heard examples of non-resistant Christians who blessed their country by faithfully praying--and their country experiencing no War at all.
Woody, to address your question of to kill 1 to save 20, I really think you should listen to this audio story of Desmond Doss below. Although I wouldn't agree with his descision to go to War, I think you and I can both respect the story of this soldier. It's a sermon that was preached in a church near where I live.

http://ia601307.us.archive.org/34/items ... D24644.mp3

TigerShadow, Did Jesus ever any other time command his disciples to kill anyone self defense or otherwise?

[SirWhit]

You didn't answer my question.

Say I'm attacked by a guy in an alleyway. Would it be wrong of me to use non-lethal self defense in an effort to get him down long enough to escape?

[Eleventh Doctor]

You didn't answer my question, why did all the Apostles die without defending themselves?

Why didn't the Apostles rescue Stephen before he was stoned to death by a mob?