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What do you think?

I believe that we that once we are baptized, we are saved through God's grace and Jesus's sacrifice, but if we fall away from the church (reverting to a worldly lifestyle), we lose our salvation.

I believe that a believer is secure with conditions - sorry if I was not clear.

Can you clarify what you mean by conditions?

I believe two things:

1) God knows our heart (Acts 15:8)
2) If we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

I think any "turning away" is a sign of incomplete belief ultimately, at least at that point.
All that believe in the Son of God know in their hearts that this testimony is true (1 John 5:10)

You don't lose your salvation, you just never had it.

God knows the beginning from the end (Isa 46:10), why would He save someone and then say, oops, you lost your salvation?

We aren't partially saved but fully saved.

So if someone lives a Christian life for twenty years, involved in church, reads the Bible, prays, shows the fruit of a Christian life but then falls away they were just faking the entire time?

I didn't, nor would I say anything about faking.

Nor does them falling away mean they can not still be saved.

But how can you claim to truly, 100% believe something if you turn away?

Note also, you are talking about actions, not belief. I don't believe you or I can truly know such a person has turned away.

We are fallen, imperfect. We may be born again, but we are not Christ. We still at all times need Him to redeem us for our sins. Just because you are saved doesn't suddenly mean you don't need Him anymore. You will stumble, some more than others. But if the true belief is there, it will guide you back.

I understand the point Limerick makes about turning away - but I think it rather shows our humanity. This idea might make sense in a vacuum world, but it's not reality. Christians don't become perfect when saved, they are still capable of mistakes and falling away. Our salvation is a relationship with God, and we can fall away from that just like any relationship. It doesn't mean the relationship was invalid in the first place.

And if you believe that you will never turn away from God after becoming saved, how do you explain all the time previous to being saved? Simply because you a Christian now, you *will always* be a Christian? You were not, however, *always* a Christian. If you believe once-saved-always-saved, you by extension believe that all people are either born saved or [censored]. And free will is a tricky thing to slide into that logic.

I also believe that we have no place to determine whether a person is currently saved, or ever has been. It's not a judgment we can make, since we don't know a person's heart. And 'knowing someone by their fruits' does not mean we have the explicit knowledge of their salvation. Christians have bad fruits just like everyone, because they are not exempt from sinning.

If you believe that 'turning away' is a sign of incomplete belief, how do you explain the everyday sins of a Christian? Do they not turn away until repentance? Surely not, or they'd accidentally go to Hell if they forgot about a lie on their deathbed. At what point can you conclusively say that enough time has passed for 'turning away'? Does not every Christian's heart grow bitter at times? Faith falters for everyone, I don't believe it means you lose your salvation. What if your faith falters indefinitely? Our human faith isn't perfect, but it doesn't mean it was insincere if it dies away.

As far as being fully saved in contrast to partially, the fact that something doesn't remain forever doesn't invalidate its existence. I used to hate coffee wholeheartedly, and now enjoy it thoroughly. It doesn't mean I didn't *really* used to hate coffee. And I certainly don't mean to trivialize salvation, I'm just saying that things change. The fact that a Christian didn't *used* to accept God's salvation doesn't invalidate the fact that they do now.

Ezekiel 18:24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

Note that this verse does not say the righteous man was never righteous in the first place.

-- Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:41 am --

Limerick wrote: But how can you claim to truly, 100% believe something if you turn away?

-- How can you claim to love God if you still sin? If you truly, 100% loved God, how could you falter?


Another thought: Can a person have any kind of relationship with God without being saved?

How do you guys interpret John 15:6
1. This verse says that we can fall away.
2. Chafer: This verse is talking about 'a man' and not 'a branch'. It is talking about false professors who shall be rejected by men, not the falling away of a believer.
3. Ryrie: This means the burning of useless works, but we're still secure.
4. Strombeck: This verse is talking about all mankind.
5. Rice: This verse is talking about a branch and not men
6. Something Else.

My biggest question though through all this is what you mean by saved. To me, it is simple: when the time comes, you will no longer be victim of God's ultimate wrath. If at one point it is true that you will not be victim of this wrath, it is always true. If you say "It will rain tomorrow" and it doesn't, you were wrong. You can't tell me: Well, it was going to rain until it didn't. No, you were wrong.

It is either true that you will be saved when the time comes or false, not half true or half false or different from one moment to the next. There is one outcome.

God is omniscient, thus this outcome is known.

In a manner of speaking you can neither gain nor lose salvation. The answer is known already. You will or you will not.

The choice is there before you, you either choose or you do not.

In the words of Yoda: Do or do not, there is no try.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from. Thank you for explaining your reasoning, it was very insightful.

Just because the answer is already known does not effect whether I have salvation. Just because somethings is known it does not cancel out any actions we do.

My PaPa was a Christian. He was a faithful believer and lover of Christ, and studying to be a pastor. THen he decided he didn't need or want God. He became abusive, an Alcoholic, possibly was involved in drugs. He gambled. wasted 40,000 dollars in a year. He commited adultery. He was living life so close to God, but fell away. It says in the Bible, that your name can be removed from the book of life. Removed, and put back in, I suppose. My Papa is now living his life for the Lord (and I don't want anyone to say he wasn't really a believer in the first place, he was, trust me)

Actually, if you say a person can be 'unsaved' which doesn't even make sense, they cannot be saved again.

Can you expand on that Blitz? Also the majority of Christians believe a person can be unsaved and then become saved again so maybe treat the belief with a little more respect?

Hebrews ten
26 For if we sin willfully after having received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath accounted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath despised the Spirit of grace?

Thus if these verses can be interpreted as the ability to lose your salvation, it gives no chance to comeback.

They can also be interpreted to say that after being saved you can no longer sin.

Therefore you could never lose your salvation.

But we do sin after being saved, all though when that occurs is a completely different discussion.

Blitz wrote:Actually, if you say a person can be 'unsaved' which doesn't even make sense, they cannot be saved again.

A person can be saved, then decide they don't want it anymore, then decide they want God again. and, I was in the word today, and it said, he who continues to sin has not known the father... or something like that