Joel Osteen

[Eleventh Doctor]

Joel Osteen teaches a false gospel so he has reached no one with The Gospel.

No one is saying money in of itself is evil but making money or prosperity in general the primary goal of the Christian life is wrong.

[SirWhit]

Once you all reach more people with the Gospel than Joel has we'll talk.

Oh, and the money to finance it. Since, you know, you need money to reach millions of people. Because loving money, not having money, is the root of all evil.

You're misunderstanding what we're saying. Joel Osteen is reaching people with a false, deadly gospel. If someone joins the church just so he can have a beach house and a six digit salary, he's not joining for the right reasons and when he doesn't get what he was promised, he'll leave.

And you're saying we're wrong?

[Doll]

Once you all reach more people with the Gospel than Joel has we'll talk.

Oh, and the money to finance it. Since, you know, you need money to reach millions of people. Because loving money, not having money, is the root of all evil.

But he hasn't reached them with the truth, he's reached them with a lie.

I mean, think about all the people that Buddhists and Islamists and Mormons have reached. A lot, yes. But if it isn't the truth, it's wrong.

[HomeschoolCowgirl]

Agreed, Belle.

[Leetastic]

Actually, it's not... until you study it out and listen to teaching and put some effort into it, don't repeat what you hear others say just because it sounds right. I have had literally thousands of dollars come in supernaturally to my life, because God is good and He loves me so much He takes care of me. I have also seen this in my family and friends and heard testimonies from around the world of the same. Doesn't mean I sit on my butt all day and do nothing expecting Him to pay the bills, but He is honoring to His Word.

Honestly, I wouldn't spend so much time teaching on money as he has, but I've found that people often preach what God has done in their life. He has had a supernatural growth and increase in church and ministry- you'd be blind to deny it. Listen to testimonies of people lost in sin and finding love and grace in Christ through his ministry, and perhaps you won't be so quick to condemn a fellow believer and brother in Christ with whom you will spend all eternity.

Just because you don't agree with someone's doctrine does not make that person a heretic. And, if you would actually listen to sermons by him, you would find that Christ is the ultimatum of the Christian life, even in Joel's eyes. However, because God is good and He loves us, blessing follows us. As I said, I have experienced this many, many times in my life. The problem, it would appear, is taking the issues you have with his ministry and using that to [censored] all that he is and does.

Ooo, be wary saying he hasn't reached people for Christ. You're saying that by preaching on money more than you're comfortable with, he's had no people accept Christ through his ministry or truly be saved. That is straight on God-complex, my friends, and you have no business challenging what he says God has called him to do. You're arguing with God, then. Be careful of that.

Did you know Jesus had plenty of money? He had a home to go to. He had wealthy women, including Joanna, giving money and taking care of Him. Judas would not have been able to steal from the money box had they only three or four shekels- someone would have noticed come dinner time. Plus, his attire was greater than that of ordinary men, otherwise the Romans wouldn't have wagered over it. No where does it say that His company fasted for days on end or slept in a barn- travelling cost money, even in Jesus' time and after. Paul speaks in Philippians of the church sending him money to further the Gospel.

TL;DR: Don't [censored] people just because you don't like their theology. If they're reaching people for the Kingdom of God and spreading the Gospel you should be cheering them on. If you have a problem, pray for them. Don't hold yourself in the position of judge and jury and decide you know what God said to Joel when it isn't any of your business anyway.

[Eleventh Doctor]

He's a heretic because he preaches "God has already done everything He's going to do. The ball is now in your court. If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you're going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family" We are not promised success, wisdom, prosperity, or health in this life. Scripture says expect to be persecuted and suffer trials, not get everything we want. How did all the Apostles die a martyrs death if all they had to do to be prosperous and healthy was meditate and believe?

because God is good and He loves us, blessing follows us.

Have you ever read the Beatitudes? Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. You and Osteen seem to have not read these, because the Christian life is not about receiving blessings here on earth, we are blessed when we are persecuted we are told to count it joy when we face trials and hard times. We are told to give all we have to the poor. No where does the Bible say we will enjoy financial and material success because we are Christians.

As for you claims about Jesus, they are very much off.

Luke 9 "He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And He said to them, “Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece." So what were you saying?

Luke 9 “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it." This is the opposite of Osteen's "gospel"

You claim Christ had a home to go to, if that's true then Christ is a liar because He said in Luke 9 “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” So did Christ have a home to go to?

He is busy damming people to hell because he is teaching false thing. And as Christians it is our duty to condemn his teaching. 2 Timothy 4:1-4 "I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." Osteen teaches to itching ears, the Gospel is not easy to hear or to understand. So yes what he is doing is very wrong and no I will not cheer him and it is my business.

[Blitz]

Interesting. I have listened to a huge amount of Pentecostal preaching. They are big in Africa, and our largest problem as missionaries. We have a good two or three churches for every street, not joking, yet the people at the end of the month still head to there villages to visit the fetish priest. Not joking.
My cousin's husband is a devout follower of pastor Chris who is similar to Joel Osteen. He stinks as a husband. Futhermore, some of the best selling book here in Africa is from preachers like Osteen. Yet, we still are hugely lacking in change. Ghana is the 2nd or 3rd most corrupt country in the world.
I cannot deny miraculous provision because it has happened to me, but not always will it happen, and it should not be the focal point of our faith.

[Leetastic]

See, that's it right there. You're afraid of being responsible. It's easier to just put everything on God and claim His fault when things happen, but go to James 1- if you lack wisdom, ask it. If you need healing, go to the elders of the church to hands laid on you, also in James. Plus, believers lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. It is also promised that whatever you set your hand to shall prosper. Healing is manifested far more times in the New Testament than anything else- why, then, if it's not something we can have? God does change, then, if He doesn't do the same things for us as He did for the early church. I guess they were more important to Him, too.

God did all He ever needed to do by sending Jesus; all we need to do is receive what He did and believe on that. That was the hardest thing ever to accomplish- do you dare contest it's beneath God to help His children with the little as He did with the big?

You know what "poor in spirit" is in the Greek? In a word: humility. It means knowing that yes, we are without. We are nothing without God. However, poor people reach out for help. We, the poor without Christ, reach to God for help, and help comes- just like beggars received money, we the poor in spirit are sure to be filled, thus receiving the kingdom of Heaven.

Yeah, count it joy. Things happen. Does that mean, then, the entire existence of a Christian is supposed to be gloomy and down trodden and oh, woe is me? That no matter what if we're not living desperately or being attacked ever day we're not doing it right? Think of it this way: children flocked to Jesus. He must have had a good time with them, because children avoid people who are sticks in the mud. I know this from years of experience in child care. No matter what people said or did, Jesus continued on.

Persecution comes, most certainly, but mostly from people. Jesus was persecuted, but by what/how? People. I have been under persecution for my beliefs before, but I live a content, happy life with everything I need, plus the extra God blesses me with. About which, I notice, you ignored my personal testimony of thousands of dollars supernaturally given to me. Not to mention what I've seen Him do in the lives of others... care to discuss that? It's too late to tell me it didn't happen since, you know, it did.

You also took Luke 18:18-30 out of context... Jesus was talking to a rich young ruler who loved money. We've covered that the love of money is the root of all evil. Jesus, knowing the heart of this young man, still gave him the opportunity to follow Him. However, he chose wealth. Had he been willing to give all, he would have received the promise in verse 30. Go read that for yourself.

Luke 9:3. Oh, I was going to say yes, it would be troublesome to carry too much baggage when walking around Israel, now wouldn't it? Still, let's say they were gone for a month. They were walking miles upon miles, preaching and exuding energy dealing with multitudes that came to listen to them teach. If what you said is truth, that they had nothing, then let's see: they would sleep outdoors. They would have no food. Jesus Himself, the Son of God, became hungry and weak after fasting for so long. He wasn't walking around or dealing with people. Therefore, the disciples burned through their reserves even faster. Umm... oh! God took care of them either way. One: God worked through people to give them what they needed, or two: they were sustained supernaturally by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Either way, pretty cool, hm?

Also, Peter had a wife. Do you think he left her destitute and poor, with nothing on which she could survive? If we are to give all to the poor, won't we then be poor? And those not poor then give all to us? Then us back to them? It goes around in a never ending circle.

And, if that is truly your belief, I dare you to follow through with it. Give everything you own away... I bet there's a homeless man on the streets of your city that would love a nice laptop. Not to mention the extraordinary amount of extra clothes you have. One tunic would be one shirt, one pair of pants, and one pair of shoes in today's society. Choose wisely.


Luke 9:23. Again: humility. Too many people think they're all that and are something special. In truth, we are, but only because of Jesus. Without Him, I am nothing. In Him, I am a firstborn child of Almighty God. I deny myself daily. It's not always easy living this life and doing what God tells me to. It's not always convenient when He tells me to stop and talk to someone, or go out of my way to help. But if He says go, I need to go. If He says stay, I need to stay. Because this life isn't about me; it's about those who need Him. And I do go after those who need Him, whether eternally or just in their issue.


Luke 9:58. Zoikes. Guess He lived on the streets for 30 years, then. And never stayed with Mary and Martha. Or Zaccheus. Or anyway, for that matter. Guess they lived on the street. Mark 6:4 suggests He still considered Nazareth "home", even though His normal life was basically over at the beginning of His ministry.

And again... context. This passage, from :57-62 is akin to Gideon's army. So many people want to jump on the bandwagon of something good, but it's so much more than a free ride to Disneyland. So much more. They were willing to stay with Him while everything went well, but God sees the heart of man. Funny things, far as I know, the Bible never says what happened after those particular three conversations... who knows what might have been.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention: Jesus' tunic was seamless. Woah. That was high end.

Honestly, kiddo, there's no need to get so defensive Again, doctrine is doctrine. If you don't agree, that's fine, but you are in no position to determine a person's salvation or if the work they do for Christ is in vain. Debate and discuss beliefs all you want, but once you begin to tear down a person you have erred, and violently so.

Okay, that last statement is laughable. What's not easy? Man messed up. God made a way to forgive past, present, and future mistakes of man because God loves us. He did this by sending Jesus to die and be raised back to life, and all you need to do is believe. How is that not easy to understand? There's a reason we're to have faith as a child, you know.

No, it is not your business, oh high and mighty one. Do you know what God said to Joel in his heart? Were you privy to conversations between a man and His Creator? Do you know what God has ordained for Joel, before time began? In a word: no. Take a chill and come off your high horse, kiddo. You are not God and do not know the heart of man. It is religion that teaches you to pick apart those you disagree with doctrinally, not the love of God. It is not your duty. Go read 1 John 1.

You know why Paul was speaking about that? Because Gnosticism was rising up in the Church, and did very rapidly so after Paul's death. Man was beginning to worship himself that way, and many other ways. It's good to know biblical history and context of Paul's time to fully understand parts of the Bible; it's amazing how much it opens up when the language, culture, and history aspects are taken into view.

Ultimately, in Joel's case, if he really were going so astray and leading millions down the tube, don't you think God is big enough to take care of him without your help?


^^Yeah, really [censored] people to Hell Talking about Jesus and salvation, and wanting people to grow spiritually... blasphemy!

EDIT: Blitz, I have many African friends who say the opposite about their countries... unfortunately, with every denomination, there will be people who are incorrect in their teaching Plus people who stink. My dad is a Bible school grad and he's not perfect... there will always, always be people who fail.

I also, agree with it not being the focal point. Jesus is the center of everything. However, money is required to travel to preach the Gospel, is it not?

[Blitz]

Paul, greatest man in my opinion in the New Testament, suffered from possibly eye problems etc. God's answer, "My grace is sufficient for you."
Joel Osteen promises you WILL succeed. He doesn't promise you will be provided for. That is the difference. I believe God will provide if you ask him, but he will not bless everyone with riches. We are missionaries. We would love a lot more thing even ministry wise. Yet God doesn't give it to us even though we ask him to. My mom has had arthritis for years, we've all prayed for it yet it hasn't gone. Why? God has a plan for even illness.

[Eleventh Doctor]

See, that's it right there. You're afraid of being responsible. It's easier to just put everything on God and claim His fault when things happen

Where did I ever say that? I take full responsibility for all of my sins and short comings. Now I agree with you that we are to ask for healing yet St. Paul himself dealt with a thorn in his side that would not go away, we do not get everything exactly as we asked for so while I agree that we can and do receive healing it is not the case that "It is also promised that whatever you set your hand to shall prosper." Please cite something that says that.

do you dare contest it's beneath God to help His children with the little as He did with the big?

I don't contest that it is within God's power to help anyone with anything but are you saying God gives us whatever we want? I don't think you're saying that so please clarify.

No the entire existence of Christians doesn't have to be gloomy and downtrodden but what were the early Christians doing wrong for the first 300 years of their existence when it was constant persecution and death? Where they just not asking God hard enough for prosperity?

we the poor in spirit are sure to be filled, thus receiving the kingdom of Heaven.

To be filled with spiritual riches and receive the Kingdom of God, not to be given financial prosperity and receive earthly kingdoms.

I have no doubt God has helped you, like He's helped me in the past but to say that God will always answer our financial needs by giving to us generously is an insult to Christians who live in poverty and don't get the "thousands of dollars" that you got from God.

Are you willing to give up a life where God gives you thousands of dollars? And take up Christ's cross?

I have no doubt that God worked through people to give them what they needed, how does that translate to what Osteen is saying? And yes I should give more, I'm just saying you're challenging me to give that up while saying God just gives thousands of dollars to whoever asks, if that's the case then why do we need to give to others at all? Why not just tell them about this awesome God who gives us whatever we want?

I have no doubt that Jesus stayed with people while He was traveling but I doubt He had a million dollar mansion like Osteen.

If your takeaway from reading the Gospels and the account of Christ's crucifixion is, Christ had nice things then you've got your priorities as straight as the Romans who cast lots for His cloak, you care about the same things after all.

I'm defensive when people promote false teachings. How far do you take this by the way? Mormons help a lot of people, should we ignore their false teachings?

The faith of a child is not, I have faith in you now give me stuff. That is the attitude of a spoiled materialistic adult.

I have no need to know what God said to Joel in his heart. All I have to know is what Joel says and that what he says is wrong. This has nothing to do with Joel's heart.

I think what St. Paul said can be applied to all false teachings, such as the prosperity gospel.

if he really were going so astray and leading millions down the tube, don't you think God is big enough to take care of him without your help?

So we should never question someone who has millions of followers because God can just take care of it?

Joel focuses on earthly rewards, that is the wrong focus. Our rewards are in heaven, our faith should not be focused on the things of earth that will pass away.

[Doll]

Ultimately, in Joel's case, if he really were going so astray and leading millions down the tube, don't you think God is big enough to take care of him without your help?

This quote is the one that stood out to me the most. First off, as I'm sure you're well aware, it's obvious that many other preachers and leaders of other religions have been able to reach many people. Why didn't God stop them when we thought/think he should? Because yes, he obviously could, and can, but he didn't, because he does things in his own times, and in his own ways.

Mormons are reaching many many new people for their beliefs every day. They say they are Christians, the true Christians, but I believe they are living and teaching a lie? Why? Because I can look at what they teach and see that it doesn't line up with what the Bible says. Same with this case.

[John Henry]

Say, guys nothing wrong with hair gel at all..it's absolutely OK...

[Leetastic]

Blitz, why pray if there's a plan for it?

I am going to the eye thing briefly: date it. When Paul wrote to the Galatians about the "eye problems", his visit to Galatia historically included the stoning at Lystra- read the timeline in Acts 14. All the visited cities/churches mentioned were in the region of Galatia, and the letter written was circulatory- all the churches would have received a copy. Since he continued travel after the stoning, most would have seen bodily proof of that. I figure that includes some swollen eyes since he was bashed around with small boulders and all.

As to the thorn: what, biblically, followed Paul around everywhere he went? Riotous crowds, stirred up most likely demonically. There is no where in the Bible that suggests there were other issues with Paul. The issues seen rise from people constantly coming against him and seeking to end his life. Paul was human, all, and not some supernatural deity. The love and care he poured out thrown back in his face? It's enough to dishearten the best after a time. But that is the best time to rely on His grace and realize that what we do in His Name will not be in vain, for God will be glorified.
^^That is all I'm going to say on those two subjects.

Eleventh, I was not speaking of sin. I was speaking of what you said- wisdom, and prosperity, and healing, etc. Take responsibility for that. You want wisdom? Ask of God. You need financial help? Ask of God. All other things, etc. Sorry for the confusion.

Also, Deuteronomy says it. If you're ever in doubt of something being in the Bible, Google it. I sincerely mean that and not sarcastically Works like a charm.

I didn't ever say persecution wouldn't be constant, now did I? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. However, persecution has nothing to do with prosperity. Persecution may come but I'll shout my way through it, because God is greater than any weapon formed against me.

The main issue here, I do believe, is that you all are convinced prosperity = millionaire. However, that is not the case, and you have apparently had that ingrained into you. God promises to prosper us, most definitely. That does not mean we'll be millionaires. Hah. My career fails to bring in money- but I always have above and beyond what I need, because God is good. The thousands of dollars, in the long run, is not an obscene amount, but it has always been what I needed. It takes a lot more than that to live in this. Will I ever be rich? Naw, I've no need to. Will I ever be poor? Naw, I've no need to. Yet I will always have enough and more than enough.

We are blessed to be a blessing. I was challenging you to prove a point- there is a flaw in standing by something and not following it, is all. And why give? Because God works through people as well as supernaturally. I had people hand me things in college, not always money, because God is that good. Stupid, trifling things that really don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Yet they came to me, when the person had no idea what I had been thinking about, because God is good.

If you think that about me, that's fine. You don't know me- but there was a discussion, so I answered it. Realize one discussion about one thing does not encompass the entirety of that person. You said Christ had nothing, and I said otherwise. Simple as that.

How far do I take it? When I am in need, God is my supply- above and beyond, because I am blessed to be a blessing.

You're right- that would be materialistic. Good thing I'm not This is proof that I need to quote, but am too lazy to do so. If you'll look again, that was in response to your saying the Gospel is not easy to hear or understood. We take the Gospel with faith like a child, and it is easy.

Actually, it has all to do with what God said. If God told Joel to raise money to preach the Gospel around the world, then he had better do so, knowing that God always is the ultimate source and provider. If that is the case, and Joel himself has implied this is the case, then you are arguing with God. Do you really want to be caught in that position?

Notice the video: so everything Joel says is wrong? Or just his approach to money? I have actually listened to him preach, and there is nothing without God. The prosperity, whether financial or otherwise, is an added blessing on God's love.

As I said in my first post on this thread, I do think he tends to lean on money a bit too much. However, that alone is not cause to play God, as I have said before. It is immaturity that leads to deciding you are fit for the throne of God. There's really no point in this; I don't want to sit and argue over doctrine. You don't agree? That's fine. There are many other "prosperity" preachers who teach differently on Joel about this subject and others, but everyone is different. Nevertheless, it is never your business to play God on behalf on another human. Forget everything else I said but remember that, and there is no reason you could ever have for doing so... unless, you know, they straight up blaspheme or deny. That is the real discussion at hand, and why I've been bothering here anyway. You are not Joel's judge and jury. For who can bring a charge against God's elect? (again, Google.)

Funny you should bring up Mormonism; at the core it is not Jesus is the only way to Heaven. That is a cult, not a denomination. Major difference. However, that wasn't the best way to put it on my part, that I will concede.

Yet, I can look it up and see it does line up with the Bible, Belle. So what do we do then? Realize that with the way it is, there will be differences. However, the final truth that Jesus Christ is the Savior and only way to God should be a unifying fact, not something tossed away and ignored because of another difference. You will be spending eternity with Joel Osteen, and with me, so I ask you allow yourself to think openly on that tidbit. I still love you all, even though we may disagree. We are united in Christ no matter the denomination, or at least we should be... I don't see you differently than I do my fellow charismaniacs ( ), nor do I question your salvation because we don't see eye to eye. Allow the love of God to open your heart to that, or at least take it into consideration.

EDIT: I like the gelled hair, actually. It suits him.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I ask God to do what is best for me not ask for what I think is best for me.

Deuteronomy is specifically a covenant to the Israelites.

You'll shout your way through? Is that what the martyrs of the Early Church did? Is that what the Apostles did?

My main issue is that you think you will never be poor, if you do end up poor will it be because you didn't shout hard enough for wealth?

Maybe Joel was called to have a ministry and raise the money to do so but saying that everyone can shout themselves to wealth is wrong and harmful. As I've said before, what happens when someone shouts give me wealth and God doesn't say yes? No not millionaire but just not poor, what happens then?

And no of course not everything he said is wrong but there's a lot.

When I am in need, God is my supply- above and beyond

The important distinction is does He supply what you want or what He knows you need?

I do think this is straight up blasphemy and I am not playing God. You're the one who seems to be claiming complete knowledge of what is or is not wrong.

[Spoon]

The main issue here, I do believe, is that you all are convinced prosperity = millionaire. However, that is not the case, and you have apparently had that ingrained into you. God promises to prosper us, most definitely. That does not mean we'll be millionaires. Hah. My career fails to bring in money- but I always have above and beyond what I need, because God is good. The thousands of dollars, in the long run, is not an obscene amount, but it has always been what I needed. It takes a lot more than that to live in this. Will I ever be rich? Naw, I've no need to. Will I ever be poor? Naw, I've no need to. Yet I will always have enough and more than enough.

You have no need to be poor? You know you'll *never* be poor? That thought screams out as incredibly arrogant to me.

What about the Christians who have faith in God and are poor? What about the Christians who literally give themselves to the mission field? Are they doing something wrong when they're destitute? When their supporters don't fund enough, and they run out of resources? When they have to eat beans and rice for two months solid?

I'm not even sure what you're saying 'poor' is, because it's definitely not something most Americans even begin to have a grasp on. I think you might find it a little difficult to spend time with missionaries and tell them you have no *need* to be poor. I assume you think that people who are poor are doing something wrong?

[Blitz]

*Steams*
A Christian will never be poor. WHERE DOES THE BIBLE SAY THAT??? David even asked God not to keep him always in need. We are poor according to American standard. God provide solely what you need which is really not what you think you need. Joel Osteen preaches a God that gives you a lot and prosperity. Oh and please respond to my post above the one that you responded to.
Why pray indeed. To deepen our relationship with God, and he commands it. If you realize God is the Alpha and Omega. That means he is at the beginning of eternity and at the end of eternity now. He is out of time and out of mind.
Anyway, people are supposedly becoming Christians to reap benefit and nothing less because of this. Then when the times get tough they fall out.

[Samantha14]

I'm a Christian.

I'm poor (by today's standards.)

Did I do something wrong?

I have Internet because that's how my family makes a living. I have a 7 year old iPod because it was given to my father as a gift, and passed along to me. It doesn't really work well, but it's sufficient in my need; here. You may not see that as a need; you may, in fact, use it to point out "blessings". I will agree that this was a blessing, but it also filled a black hole in my life that almost swallowed me many times. God allowed me these things so I could continue through the storm; He hasn't allowed me to get an iPod 6th generation, or super high speed Internet, or become famous online. Sure, those may be playful wants, but they aren't specific needs. If God decides to bless us with a want, then that's awesome. If not, are we doing something wrong?

Please define what your idea of prosperity is again. You have no need to be poor? What? I'm totally confused about the, forgive me, hurtful arrogance at this statement. You have no need to be poor, so no big deal. God will just give you a heavenly credit card and say Have Fun, Son. Lolno. No one has the "need" to be poor. But sometimes we are poor. Sometimes we have to downsize because of money issues. Sometimes we have to sell things we like, like I had to sell a gaming system I got as a gift sone years ago and I really enjoyed. Sometimes we don't have a lot. Sometimes we don't have a roof over our heads, or more than the clothes on our back. What then? Where did we go wrong?

I know this stuff for fact. I sat under Kenneth Copeland and Keith Moore for two years. I have first hand experience at both sides of this argument. I agree that everything isn't necessarily wrong, but it isn't necessarily right either. It's sort of a half-truth, which is often what Feel Good Gospel and the American Dream are all about.

I know because they use all these verses, so very out of context. Such as the verses that say, For He knows the desires of your heart, and give and it will be given, pressed down, shaken together, and running over. (I probably missed parts of that, it's five am and I've not slept, so forgive me) And the passage in Mark that talks about having the faith to move mountains and says "if there be anything you desire, and you ask and believe you receive, it shall be done unto you."

First off, of course God knows the desires of your heart. But you have to be open and willing to show him too. Secondly, those verses have to be the most misunderstood verses in the entire Word of God. "Ask and you will get" is the mentality that we have gotten because we take those words literally. But we have to think in a spiritual sense. What are we supposed to do when we ask? What is faith?

My simple answer is, WWJD? God is not a vending machine. That's all I've ever gotten from the Prosperity Gospel Doctrine. God will give, overflowingly, whenever we ask. No. when it says that... when we are having true faith... when we are giving... do you know what we're supposed to be doing? No, not giving to the poor. No, not giving to the church. It's not even truly talking about materialistic things, like money, at all. You know what it's talking about? Ourselves.

When we give ourselves, we are having true faith, not that God will relieve every pain that we ever have in life, but that he will be there with and for us every step of the way, until and after we are out of the storm. We are having faith to move a mountain, not because we can just say and let it be so, but that we give ourselves to God and allow him to work through us to move the mountain. "Faith without works is dead".

As I said, God isn't a vending machine. We can't just punch in a button ("ask") and get what we want. If we are truly having faith and giving ourselves to God, you know what we're supposed to do when we ask? Yes, be honest. Say, God, I really want this to happen. It is a desire of my heart, but not my will, but thy will." Our desires should not over power what our true desire should be, and that is His will. If his will is to bless you with materialistic goods, then hey, that's great. If not, then that's great too. You know why?

Because, God provides. That doesn't mean He'll provide with high speed Internet, or brand name clothes, or newest model cars. The very fact that He gives us oxygen to breathe is provision. We should not be focused on what we can get here, whether it be for a greater good or not. Store up your treasures in heaven, not where dust and moths can get to it, cause wherever your treasure lies, there will your heart be also.

Yes, if you need something, just ask God. But as I said, true asking is not expectation. It's humility. It's saying God, this is happening, I want this to happen, but it's up to you, not me." Yes, God has a plan for everything. Why pray you ask? Well, as Jake said, because prayer isn't meant for only when you need something. It's a conversation with your Heavenly Father, the creator of all, to honor him and strengthen your relationship with him.

If he answers with a yes, fantastic. If he answers with a no, it's not because he doesn't love you. It's because He's preparing you for something better. You can't deny that Job was a very well off man before everything happened to him. And do you know what went on during the conversation Satan and God had? Satan insisted that Job would deny God, but God said he wouldn't. God said okay, do something to him. And Satan was like, nice try, but you have Your hand over Him. I can't do anything, but you know He'll deny you. He'd do it if I could do something, and He will anyway. You've given him so much He'll get a big head and deny you. And God said, fine. He literally took his hand off of Job, and told Satan he could do whatever he wanted, except take his life. And Job went through a living Hell. Do you know why God did that though? God literally took his hand off of Job, not because he wasn't having enough faith, or was sinning, but because he knew Job was strong enough not to break. That he always pit God first and had true faith. God did allow twice as many earthly blessings when Job proved faithful, but Because he knew Job would still have his heart in the right place, and his treasures put up in heaven.

So yes, sometimes we're going to go through our own living Hells. Sometimes we're going to get sick, hurt, poor, scared, etc. Sometimes we're going to fall to the point where we can't get right back up again. Not because we didn't have enough faith to shout our way through til we were well off again, but so God could show he is right there. Sitting beside us, comforting us, and to let us know He's right there to pick us back up again when we are ready to let Him.

His time isn't our time. A few years is a few seconds to him. If we don't get healed, if someone we love dies, if we lose our jobs, wait. It may not seem like it's going to work out, but God has a plan for everyone and everything. He's waiting to show us something better if we're willing to let him guide our blind selves to it. It may take a lot of hardships that we don't understand. That seem pointless right now. A d hurt really, really bad. But in the grand scheme of things, it will all be worth it. Trust Him.

My dad has been sick for over a decade now. I pray to God everyday to take it away. To help us become financially stable. To make our family whole again. Sometimes I get depressed when He's asleep all day, or when I go to my closet and see a week and a half worth's amount of clothing. (that isn't an exaggeration) or hear another family member has shut us out. But I have to keep on keeping on. I've had to learn that this is happening, not because I'm not having enough faith, or being a good enough Christian, but because my world is different than His, and so is my view. I'm still climbing the mountain, but He's right here beside me, and He promised that as soon as I make it to the top, I'll have the most amazing, rewarding view ever. He tells me not to give up, when I'm tired, or when I fall and get hurt. It'll be okay in the end, and He's right here with me.

I'm poor materialistically. Not as much as some, though more than others. But I'm not poor otherwise. I've been provided with the needs God sees fit for me. You guys, family, food, clothes, a roof... I've prospered a lot. I won't always, it's definitely not promised to be easy, but I will reach the top one day. God will give to me overflowingly, if I give my all to him, allowing His will, and what he wills best for me, to be first and foremost.

Okay. I've ranted for more than an hour. I'm done now. Sorry I sounded so rash in my first post; I was perturbed at something else and pretty much clouded any true judgement here. Abd sorry if I sound rash in this post; it's really late. zzzzz.

P.S. Can you please stop calling 11th, Kiddo? I'm pretty sure he's older than you and it's driving me crazy. xD

P.P.S. I wrote this entirely on an iPod. My thumbs hurt so much. @_@

[SirWhit]

^ You are my new favorite poster.

[Wakko]

^I'm pretty sure you can't disagree with that, and Sam wins the debate. =p

[Doll]

^ You are my new favorite poster.

If Sam wasn't already your favorite poster, you have issues, kid. *hides*

But seriously. *claps*