Duggar Debate

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aragtaghooligan
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Hey not sure if any of you are interested but I know the last time I discussed Josh's past on the debate channel on the ToO we talked about the views the Duggars had on sexuality and also of modesty and how these views can contribute to victim blaming. I posted a fascinating article on this subject in the debate area. Please feel free to check it out. Re-examining how we as Christians view these issues may be a good way to step forward.
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DredgeAmazing
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Now, I confess the Duggars likely have big personal issues, but they're still good folks.
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Why are they still good folks?
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GKar wrote:They did deal with it. You may not agree or like how they did, but the did what they thought was best. Guess what….it did turn out as having been the right thing in dealing with their KID. What he did was wrong and he did get his lumps for it.
What [censored] me off about what so many say on this is that once a person makes a mistake, they are forever judged to be that way. You leave no room for people to change, grow, mature, deal with their own issues, etc. Then, once it is done, it’s done and over with. Hate to burst the incorrect assumption here, but people can AND do change. Also, not everything needs to be broadcast into the public forum. Many things in life are better kept private for the greater good and the protection of others.
The true issue here are the morons who released what are SEALED records of minors. Why? Because of an anti-family, anti-Christian, progressive agenda. They revictomized the young girls all over again in what they feel to be an even a worse way! How about [that]?! No, you just focus on stupidity done 12 years ago by a kid.
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Eleventh Doctor
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True I don't agree with them criminally covering up a crime that led to more victims. Just because it was their kid doesn't mean they get to break the law, this post is complaining about the young girls being revictimized, well what about the first time they were victimized? What about actions they didn't take that led to those young girls being victimized in the first place?

Also they are complaining now about being broadcast when they were the ones who sought out the limelight and wanted to be put on TV. They could have not done that and we would have never heard about this.

As for the leaked record being the true crime, [censored], the true crime is happening right now in the ATI/Bill Gothard community where, as Bob Duggar freely admitted on national TV, there is an epidemic of incest and sexual abuse occurring.
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OK, so it's been an extremely long time since I've written on the SS. I've been extremely busy with school and I'm ashamed to admit that I completely forgot about the SS.

I haven't yet read this entire thread, but I would like to voice my opinion on the subject.

I definitely think that it was wrong that Josh Duggar did what he did. A lot of Christians that I've talked to about the subject have dismissed what he did saying he was young and didn't know what he was doing. But really, he was 14. He knew exactly what he was doing. I think we all know that going into our teenage years we can get pretty dirty minded. Being 14 myself I can attest to that and have a very hard time believing that Josh wouldn't have known that what he was doing was wrong. There are rumors that the Duggar parents don't teach their children about sex until the day before their marriage, but there has been no confirmation of that and I find it a bit hard to believe. But Josh definitely sinned and knew he was sinning. So don't dismiss his sin because of his age.

Now I also think that the secular media shouldn't be blowing this story up so big. Everyone sins and everyone deserves their privacy. Josh Duggar sinned and it was wrong, but the media shouldn't have made it so public. Even though the documents were released completely legally (despite his parents claiming otherwise) I don't think that the documents should have been released. I think what Josh did should be kept between him and his family. I would hate it if every single lie, or dirty thought of mine was made public for the whole world to know. So I can completely understand that the Duggars must be going through an extremely hard time right now since (a) their son has commit a terrible sin repeatedly, and (b) the media has made it completely public so everyone knows what Josh did.

From the articles, blog posts, Reddit posts, newspaper articles, etc that I've read it would seem that the public is completely freaking out about Josh's sin. This actually surprised my. "Let he who has committed no sin be the first to throw the stone." said Jesus. It's not like the public hasn't sinned either. So why are they acting this way? They're using Josh's sins as an excuse to hate on Christianity and the Duggars beliefs. Now I certainly don't agree with the Duggar's beliefs either. Their whole Quiverfull Christianity movement has a ton of [censored] that I don't agree with. But I'm not reacting like the general public because I actually respect their beliefs and realize that anybody is capable of committing a sin just as bad as Josh.

Now here's where I get into some really controversial stuff. Just going to state some facts here and a few opinions that I thought were interesting.

Back in 2002 (a few years before Josh's sin) when Jim Bob was running for senate he stated "If a woman is raped, the rapist should be executed instead of the innocent unborn baby. Rape and incest represent heinous crimes and as such should be treated as capital crimes."

Now thats a bit ironic....and very hypocritical. But I don't want to start a flame war so moving on...

So after Josh commit his sin(s) he admit them to his parents. His parents then did NOT tell the victims what his son had done to them. I really don't have an opinion on this. I understand that after a terrible sin they'd obviously want to move on and forget about it, but really.....was it really a good idea not to tell Josh's younger sisters and babysitter what he had done to them while they were sleeping. Again, I'll sate that I don't have on opinion on this, but it might have been sense to tell them. Thinking ahead to the present day they should have accounted for the information eventually being released publicly which would definitely spark some hard feelings after such a long time.

Now for my last thought. Should Jim Bob and Michelle gone to the authorities right after Josh commit his first sin. Now this is a bit of a hard one. Technically by not alerting the authorities to what their son had done they have allowed continuing abuse of a minor. My opinion is that they were right to keep Josh's sin amongst themselves. They didn't know at the time that he would later molest more people. They thought they'd be able to get him to repent for his sins and realize that what he did was wrong. It wasn't their fault he went on to do it again.

In conclusion I think since the news has come out about Josh's sins he has been very responsible about it. He even quit his own job by his own will. He's handeling the situation very maturely. On the other hand Jim Bob and Michelle could be doing a lot better of a job then they are right now. From their numerous interviews it would seem as though their trying to cover the whole thing up. Maybe they're not actively trying to, maybe they're just bad at communicating their points of view. Either way I think most people, both athiest, agnostic, or religious are reacting to the whole "scandal" wrongly. We should all respect the Duggar's privacy and maturity and realize that everyone is a wretched sinner.

Anyway I think I've written enough. I've been writing so long that I missed the Game of Thrones finale :(
I just wanted to voice my thoughts and opinions on the subject. I won't be able to read any replies for a while since I'm leaving for a week long hiking trip with some friends tomorrow.
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Eleventh Doctor
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My opinion is that they were right to keep Josh's sin amongst themselves. They didn't know at the time that he would later molest more people. They thought they'd be able to get him to repent for his sins and realize that what he did was wrong. It wasn't their fault he went on to do it again.
This is why there is such a thing as mandatory reporting, because every parent thinks their child couldn't possibly do it again. They're wrong, he did do it again, several times. They are in fact at fault for what happened next.

Anyway, I also don't see how you could read from all those sources and think the parents weren't trying to cover this up.
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Mr. Yorp wrote:
GKar wrote:They did deal with it. You may not agree or like how they did, but the did what they thought was best. Guess what….it did turn out as having been the right thing in dealing with their KID. What he did was wrong and he did get his lumps for it.
What [censored] me off about what so many say on this is that once a person makes a mistake, they are forever judged to be that way. You leave no room for people to change, grow, mature, deal with their own issues, etc. Then, once it is done, it’s done and over with. Hate to burst the incorrect assumption here, but people can AND do change. Also, not everything needs to be broadcast into the public forum. Many things in life are better kept private for the greater good and the protection of others.
The true issue here are the morons who released what are SEALED records of minors. Why? Because of an anti-family, anti-Christian, progressive agenda. They revictomized the young girls all over again in what they feel to be an even a worse way! How about [that]?! No, you just focus on stupidity done 12 years ago by a kid.
I agree COMPLETELY!

-- Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:42 pm --
Eleventh Doctor wrote:
My opinion is that they were right to keep Josh's sin amongst themselves. They didn't know at the time that he would later molest more people. They thought they'd be able to get him to repent for his sins and realize that what he did was wrong. It wasn't their fault he went on to do it again.
This is why there is such a thing as mandatory reporting, because every parent thinks their child couldn't possibly do it again. They're wrong, he did do it again, several times. They are in fact at fault for what happened next.

Anyway, I also don't see how you could read from all those sources and think the parents weren't trying to cover this up.
There is only one person on which to place the blame for any of this, and he has already repented.
LIVE in color, but 1968 color nonetheless
--A very misguided Panasonic viewer
TigerShadow wrote:
I think Disney should focus on making their line more ethnically diverse instead of focusing on more white girls.
I know Martin is smiling down.
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SirWhit
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It was made possible for him to continue the abuse through his parents' lack of action.
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DredgeAmazing
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SirWhit wrote:It was made possible for him to continue the abuse through his parents' lack of action.
Have you ever seen "The Bad Seed"? It probably applies to this situation if you search for the deeper meaning.
LIVE in color, but 1968 color nonetheless
--A very misguided Panasonic viewer
TigerShadow wrote:
I think Disney should focus on making their line more ethnically diverse instead of focusing on more white girls.
I know Martin is smiling down.
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Eleventh Doctor
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So you'd argue that Josh has some sort of genetic predisposition to evil acts?
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SirWhit wrote:It was made possible for him to continue the abuse through his parents' lack of action.
Exactly how long did it go on? Like over the time period of 10 years or a few months? There's a difference.
DredgeAmazing wrote:There is only one person on which to place the blame for any of this, and he has already repented.
Yeah. Anyway. Is it possible Josh could have repented? Seems to me that's not even a remote possibility to most of you.
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Eleventh Doctor
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It went on for several years.

I have no doubt that Josh repented, I have never doubted that but I don't see how that makes a difference in what we are discussing. If I repent of something does that mean I am no longer responsible under civil law? If I repent of something does that make covering up that crime okay then?
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Didn't realize that.
Eleventh Doctor wrote:If I repent of something does that make covering up that crime okay then?
Not at all. We should reap what we sow. But I believe the Duggars, even if they didn't do it right, did what they knew best for Josh.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Okay, so I'm trying to figure out where we disagree. You said what they did wasn't right. So in a hypothetical where you find out something like this is happening, what would your reaction be?

Also, I agree they were doing what "Edit: they thought" was best for Josh. Notice how we never seem to talk about what is best for his victims, they put the interests of their son above that of their daughters. It would have been best for their daughters if Josh had been reported.
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You do? Well then we do agree. I thought the blame was on the parents for not responding in the right way.

How would that have helped the victims? From what I heard, some of the sisters didn't even know what he had done till their parents made them aware of it.
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Oh sorry, I misspoke let me edit my statement. They did what they "thought" was best for Josh. What they did was actually horrible for Josh and everyone involved. Are you saying you would have done the same thing or?

Even if we assume that's true some of them were aware, but in any case it was still happening to them. The Duggars entire response ignored what was happening to the sisters and the danger posed to future victims.
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No, I agree they didn't do it all right for Josh. But I do believe the three things they did do is what should be done in this situation. #1 get counseling. #2 Talk to state authority (like a cop) #3 Get him out of the house

Now obviously, they did all these things wrong. Talked to the wrong cop etc. But to say they did nothing when they really tried doing the right thing....I just think all the harshness coming their way should be minimized.

I am obviously missing how they ignored the situation. I don't see that at all.
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1) They didn't get counseling 2) They didn't talk to the cop in his capacity as an officer of the state because he didn't take any official action 3) They got him out of the house months after the first incident and only after he abused someone outside the family.

I've never said they did nothing, I think they did a lot when they were trying to cover it up. I don't think they were trying to do the right thing. You probably will say I don't know that for sure they were trying to cover it up and you're right, I don't for sure. But if they wanted to do the right thing for Josh and the girls why didn't they listen to their elders and put them in counseling? Why was Josh taken out of the house only after he abused someone outside the family? Why did they go to the cop only after Josh got back from the ATI facility where according the Duggars own words Josh was broken?

What would you have done in their situation?
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Where do we see that they were trying to cover it up? So not letting the world know about their imperfections as a family is "covering up."? I understand that some people do not like the Duggars, and therefore their prejudice leads them to stretch this thing way out of balance. I hope these aren't the sources that have influenced you.
Eleventh Doctor wrote: But if they wanted to do the right thing for Josh and the girls why didn't they listen to their elders and put them in counseling? Why was Josh taken out of the house only after he abused someone outside the family? Why did they go to the cop only after Josh got back from the ATI facility where according the Duggars own words Josh was broken?
I think it's obvious that we are too far away from the situation to judge accurately. Sure, they did things wrong. But we don't know the behind the scenes conflicts that may have interfered with them knowing quite what to do. Besides, no matter what they would have done, someone somewhere would be on hand to criticize.

I don't know what I would do. I've never been in such a situation. Although my children will understand from a very young age that this is WRONG, and outright unacceptable...which I'm not saying the Duggars did not make clear, but I think the child understanding the crime is a step toward preventing something like this happening.
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