Duggar Debate

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
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Miss Friendship
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I guess not.

However, I do know of a family who was in a car accident, and all 5 of their children were killed. And they practiced forgiveness and did not press charges against the guy who had fallen asleep at the wheel of his semi.
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Eleventh Doctor
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That was very forgiving of them.

I think in most cases though the state is the one pressing charges, they might have decided not to press civil charges but if you kill someone even if it's involuntary manslaughter you still get charged by the state.
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aragtaghooligan
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Ok here is the thing my dear Eleventh Doctor. In God, Justice and Mercy are one. In humans we are supposed to judge not lest we be judged because "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and none of us are without sin. Also we only see through a glass darkly right now and it is hard to judge correctly when you see through a glass darkly. Let's let God judge and hold people accountable and we will forgive.
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TigerShadow
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After Jesus told people about the log and the speck in the eyes, He tells them that they should remove the log before they deal with the speck—not instead of, before. That indicates that God is okay with us "judging" others in the sense that we deal with their wrong actions and actually make them feel consequences for them. There's also the fact that God gave His people a system of law that required them to punish people, and Paul writes in his letters under divine inspiration steps that the churches could take to, as the Levitical saying went, purge the evil from their midst.

Additionally, forgiveness does not always mean letting someone off the hook entirely; it just means that you don't hold that crime or infraction against them. Even as God forgives His people, He still lets us feel the consequences of our actions.

So do you believe that we should abolish the justice system altogether, since it is made up of humans who are judging others?
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Miss Friendship
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TigerShadow wrote:So do you believe that we should abolish the justice system altogether, since it is made up of humans who are judging others?
Not to intrude on a question meant for aragtaghooligan. But I'd like to point out that Romans makes it clear the government is on earth for a reason--to punish evildoers. I don't see us Christians handed that responsibility, but obviously God meant it for the government. So I believe forgiveness can still be forgiveness without upsetting the law to try protect the wrong-doer, who still should own up, like Tiger brought up, the consequences of his actions.
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aragtaghooligan
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Yeah I'm ok with government and think criminals should be brought to justice through that system but I'm not involved in that system I'm just an observer and I shouldn't judge. There is no end to the specs and logs in my eye so I will never be able to judge your eye.
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Eleventh Doctor
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So does not judging mean not reporting others? I'm speaking in hypotheticals because we had said we want to move this conversation away from a specific case and to what we can learn for the future.
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aragtaghooligan
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I believe I already indicated how important I think it is to report a crime. I'm talking about when crimes (any crime) becomes big media news because the criminal is famous. I think we need to be careful that we don't just sit around and judge the criminal. Even if it is someone we know. Once justice by law has be been brought out if we are not the victim or super close to the victim that's it. We need to acknowledge that we do not fully understand why the criminal did what they did, and also we need to make room for repentance and forgiveness. Am I making any sense?
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Eleventh Doctor
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You are making sense, except in the specific case being discussed the criminal never faced justice.
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aragtaghooligan
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Yes I know but because of the U.S. law about charges not being able to be filed after a certain time I think that our discussing it now as people who don't know all the details risks becoming judgmental gossip
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jehoshaphat
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What about the fact that the release of his records was illegal? They were supposed to be sealed and they were released anyways.
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aragtaghooligan
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Really? That is not good!
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SirWhit
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Source for that jeho?
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Eleventh Doctor
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Can we please not change to that topic? Yes it happened but the Duggars are trying to make that the focus now and all it's going to do is make families going through this type of situation even more reluctant to come forward. The Duggar family is trying to make themselves and Josh out to be the victim while ignoring their other children who are the real victims.
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"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
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Eleventh Doctor
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I just have to say that having the real victims in this case appear on TV to try and spin the story making Josh the victim is just sickening.
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"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
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Miss Friendship
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:I just have to say that having the real victims in this case appear on TV to try and spin the story making Josh the victim is just sickening.
So you believe it all was fake? They really didn't mean it? You profess to be on the victims side of things, but when they say something, you refuse to believe them?

I have to say, reading those articles has definetly given me a better understanding of what really happened. Yes, what Josh did was wrong, but it seems to me his parents dealt with it best they knew how, and he wasn't the roaring sexual monster this thread has made him out to be.
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Eleventh Doctor
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I believe they were under a great deal of pressure to spin the story. When they are out from their parents control and can speak freely I'll listen.

How did the parents deal with it? They kept it a secret for years and sent him to an ATI reeducation camp for four months. The best way would have been to report it to the authorities, like the law requires, and deal with the underlining psychological issues.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
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Miss Friendship
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So you don't believe they have a mind of their own? That is lame. I'm sorry but the Duggars arent brainwashers.

It sounds like they didn't keep it a secret on purpose. Were they even well known back then? And it sounds like getting him out of the house was a good idea. How do you disprove of that?
~Lady Friendship Knight of the Order of Chrysostom in the Court of the Debate Vampires~
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Eleventh Doctor
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Okay, if you say so.

They didn't have to tell the media but they hid it from the police on purpose, that is illegal and if they had been discovered at the time they would have gone to jail for 6-18 years. I disapprove of sending him to an ATI facility given Bill Gothard's history. This matter should have been handled by law enforcement and then the justice system.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec

"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
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