Duggar Debate

[Mr. Yorp]

Right, the difference is the Liberal Feminist get's a job and the Conservative Christian looses his credibility.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Because he RAPED a FOUR year old girl that is in no way comparable to identity theft. Anyway, are you saying he should have stayed in his position?

[Mr. Yorp]

Probably, yes.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

[TigerShadow]

The public doesn't see it that way, and when you're in a public position, public opinion will either make or break your influence.

The thing is, though, she got her job back by dealing within the legal system. She at least served her probation, even if pleading guilty to the misdemeanor and getting felony charges dismissed is a little dissonant to me. Duggar never had to face the legal consequences of what he did.

[Miss Friendship]

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Actually, I don't think anyone on here sees it this way.

[TigerShadow]

Care to elaborate?

[Miss Friendship]

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Actually, I don't think anyone on here sees it this way.

Care to elaborate?

Well you noted that the public wouldn't see it that way... and I observed that nearly every post on this thread is scorning Josh and agreeing he needed awful punishment. I don't know that many of us considered that he might be different now. (At least I hope he is)

[TigerShadow]

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Actually, I don't think anyone on here sees it this way.

Care to elaborate?

Well you noted that the public wouldn't see it that way... and I observed that nearly every post on this thread is scorning Josh and agreeing he needed awful punishment. I don't know that many of us considered that he might be different now. (At least I hope he is)

Note your use of past tense: "needed". I can only speak for myself, but I don't think he needs an awful punishment now (if for no other reason than the fact that there isn't anything that can legally be done about it anyway; the statute of limitations has long expired in this case). What I'm saying is that something should have been done then. The investigation should not have been compromised, and he should have faced charges and a proper legal punishment when he was found out.

[Eleventh Doctor]

But I think he is not fit for leadership, especially one where he is claiming to be a moral authority when this situation was handled in such a poor manner. Also their present handling of the situation ignores the victims, we've gotten caught up in his actions and how affected he is by this revelation but what about his victims? They were swept under the rug and silenced so he could have the position he has now, I think for that reason alone he shouldn't be occupying the position.

[Miss Friendship]

Note your use of past tense: "needed". I can only speak for myself, but I don't think he needs an awful punishment now (if for no other reason than the fact that there isn't anything that can legally be done about it anyway; the statute of limitations has long expired in this case). What I'm saying is that something should have been done then. The investigation should not have been compromised, and he should have faced charges and a proper legal punishment when he was found out.

And I for one agree with you. I'm just now considering that maybe there should be some mercy involved. Especially since none of us have been as harmed as those girls were. Although we are acting as if we were. Why are we being bitter against the Duggars?

Eleventh, I am sure this whole thing is having a great effect on his position.

[aragtaghooligan]

I have seen a lot of really interesting posts and have some thoughts.
1. This happened a long time ago when society didn't understand these issues and Josh is the Duggars son so it is impressive they did anything at all as it can be hard to own up to the wrong doings of your own child even if its against another child. You want to pretend things aren't as bad, but they went to the elders, they went to a cop (how could they know what he was doing) and they sent him away for a bit (ok not to therapy but like i said it was a long time ago we didn't understand the need for therapy is society as much back then)

2. Bringing it all up again could be hurting the victims who have to go through it all over again.

3. Forgiveness and second chances are an important part of our religion.

4. Even though talking about this is good because this is a serious issue and its good to ask why does this stuff happen and what should we do when it does, it is there private story and it seems wrong to be interested in it when we don't even know them and have no way of knowing what is true and what isn't. Yes they chose to be reality stars but they still get a choice over what they share and what they don't.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Miss Friendship, maybe we are being bitter against the Duggars. Mercy, what would that look like in this situation?

1. I don't see how we as society lacked the understanding to deal with this situation back then. They went to their elders who suggested therapy, because I think even back then the need for therapy was understood; at least by these elders. The focus seemed to be on covering it up not providing therapy to Josh or the victims.

2. You have a good point here.

3. True, so what should that look like in this or cases like this?

4. They get a choice over what they share, unless is a crime. As part of the conversation about this serious issue we need to talk about the fact that the elders and the cops were mandatory reporters meaning it was against the law for them to not report this crime. An important issue with this type of crime is always report, always report, no exceptions.

[Miss Friendship]

Miss Friendship, maybe we are being bitter against the Duggars. Mercy, what would that look like in this situation?

Agreeing that although what Josh did was terribly wrong, we aren't going to hold it against him in a bitter hateful sort of way. God is in charge of this situation, and although we might like to see Josh punished for what he did, it's really not up to us. We just will learn from this and NEVER make the same mistake if we know of such abuse going on. Let go, move on.

[TigerShadow]

I have seen a lot of really interesting posts and have some thoughts.
1. This happened a long time ago when society didn't understand these issues and Josh is the Duggars son so it is impressive they did anything at all as it can be hard to own up to the wrong doings of your own child even if its against another child. You want to pretend things aren't as bad, but they went to the elders, they went to a cop (how could they know what he was doing) and they sent him away for a bit (ok not to therapy but like i said it was a long time ago we didn't understand the need for therapy is society as much back then)

I could understand this position if we were talking about, say, fifty years ago. This happened in 2002. People definitely knew about child molestation and the problems associated with it back then.

4. Even though talking about this is good because this is a serious issue and its good to ask why does this stuff happen and what should we do when it does, it is there private story and it seems wrong to be interested in it when we don't even know them and have no way of knowing what is true and what isn't. Yes they chose to be reality stars but they still get a choice over what they share and what they don't.

They don't really have much of a choice about what they share and what they don't now that it's all been made public. This is one of the reasons why the life of a celebrity isn't wise to pursue.

And we are discussing this precisely because of the issues it raises about how to deal with this sort of thing. Protesting that "it's their private story" when just about anyone in America who pays the most remote attention to the news has heard about this is kind of like shouting "move!" to a brick wall.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Okay, so completely divorced from Josh Duggar. What kind of mistakes should we not make when dealing with sexual abuse? What is the proper response when accusations of sexual abuse are made?

[aragtaghooligan]

I do just want to clarify that when I say it is there private story I mostly mean we can't criticize how they dealt with it because we don't know all the details. When the rules say report that means to police not to media.

Eleventh Doctor: I think we go by the law first and for most. Unfortunately here nothing can be done because time passed. Next we see if the victim needs therapy. Then we see if the guilty party needs therapy. If possible the victim forgives the guilty party. This doesn't have to mean their relationship is what it was but just that there is no hate or revenge. In this case I say that even though it has been a long time therapy might be good for both parties. Also I guess the only real point of bringing it all up is to see if they did something wrong by not reporting it to more than a friend cop and by not getting therapy, but that raises the question of whether therapy works if it is force on someone unwilling. Also do victims get to say if they want to charge someone or not? If they are older I mean. Anyways even if they did do something wrong it only shows us what not to do. So much time has passed they can't be punished.

[Eleventh Doctor]

The issue of whether the victims gets to decide whether charges are pressed or not is complex because you could have a situation where the victim is being bullied by their attacker into silence.

But yes, I agree that you always start by reporting it to law enforcement.

[themorninglightq]

I've seen only an episode or two. by the way. i just joined.

[Miss Friendship]

The issue of whether the victims gets to decide whether charges are pressed or not is complex because you could have a situation where the victim is being bullied by their attacker into silence.

So there is no such thing as forgiveness?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Sure there is, there's also a matter of be held accountable for their actions. In situations like this do you think forgiveness is sufficient accountability?