If you think praying to the saints is weird...

[Eleventh Doctor]

Do you ask your friends and family to pray for you?

[Helios]

Yeah. But I don't pray to them.

I guess my point is, death is the point at which literally no prayers offered by the dead person will have much (if any) effect on the lives of the living. I don't know...I'm not dead. But I'm pretty sure dead people have very little say in what happens on Earth.

[Eleventh Doctor]

And we don't pray to the Saints in the same way we pray to God, we pray in the sense that we are asking them to intercede on our behalf to God. No different than asking friends and family to pray for us.

I think the Saints care very much about us and their prayers do have affect. This is not me speaking in a vacuum but the Orthodox Church speaking from 2,000 years of experience. I can understand where you're coming from, it can be hard to comprehend.

[Pound Foolish]

This is amusing. Not. One. Single. Challenger has actually read the point of this topic. That is, the article it begins with. You would find that the article answers every single challenge any of you have made so far. You are headed off at the pass. If you want me or Arkan to reply to you, do your homework. If you are unwilling to be open minded and actually commit time to this discussion by reading that article, (which again was the entire point) but instead just want to make uninformed sarcastic remarks, there is no need to post here.
I will now leave you all to the Good Doctor's capable hands. I assure you, if you are hoping to prove her wrong, you are out of luck. (I speak from experience.)

[Helios]

Pound Foolish, you live up to your name.

I see now what you mean, 11th. It makes sense in a logical way (and I love logic), but this now brings me to another question: where in the Bible does it tell us that praying to the saints is good? I'll admit I haven't read the entire Book from cover to cover, but I sure never heard mention of praying to the saints (although there is lots of talk about the saints in the NT).

[Eleventh Doctor]

I agree, it doesn't say in Scripture to pray to the Saints. Pound Foolish and I both believe that the life of the Church is shaped by divine inspiration, both Scripture and Holy Tradition. We believe it is the teaching of the Apostles, teachings not written in the NT, that we are to pray to the Saints.

[Helios]

But if the teachings are not written in the NT, then how do you know the Apostles taught so?

[Eleventh Doctor]

Pound Foolish and I believe that we are part of the Church whose teachings, both orally and written, go back to the Apostles. This is known as Apostolic Succession. So my bishop can trace his office back to the Apostles and he continues to teach the faith handed down by all the bishops since the Apostles.

[Helios]

I understand. Are you one of PF's brothers? Arkan said he was...

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, I am not. I have never actually met PF in person.

[Pound Foolish]

Good thing too.
Really, it would be absolutely lovely to meet you sometime, Good Doctor. Are you a he or she, incidentally? (I've seen you addressed as both. I assume however that you are only one gender.)

Yes, Helios sir, I do live up to my name. How so did I do it this time? Did you in fact read the article? Or do you disapprove of my ranting ways?

[The Old Judge]

I perused through the article enough to make two statements.

1). If you want to pray to a deceased family member at their grave so they can pray for you, more power to you. I still want to go through the Jesus route.

2). Shouldn't the saints be enjoying the glories of Heaven and praising The Lord, rather than spending their time on the switchboard in Glory, picking up people's prayers and passing them in to God?

[Eleventh Doctor]

1) So do you not ask friends and family members who are still alive to pray for you and just go the Jesus route?

2) I think that being closer to God they will love people more than they ever did on earth and care more for us than anyone ever has while here on earth. To say that they will no longer love others enough to pray for us to me seems to miss the point of worshiping God.

[Helios]

Just your ranting ways, PF. You remind me of someone, but I can't identify the resemblance.

And 11th, that was a silly question on my part. Sorry.

[NateVONgreat]

...then you are normal.
no offense whoever does*
I think that praying to dead humans is not only weird, uncalled for but also a sin.
just look at the ten commandments, the first two say:
"Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."
That is what I call idol worshiping, or maybe something worse, like people who try to talk to their dead loved ones, much like how Muslims pray to Muhammad, and Catholics pray to Mary. THEY ARE HUMANS, mortals, like you and me. Praying FOR them is different, but I don't think we can change, help them in anyway, they are dead. But, THEY pray FOR (not to) us. Just like Jesus prays FOR us TO the father.
Telekinesis is something else entirely.

[Eleventh Doctor]

First off, I wasn't aware Muslims pray to Muhammad. Secondly, Orthodox also pray to Mary and the Saints who are not mortal anymore, they are living forever. They are in heaven, they are not dead because God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Also I don't understand where our disagreement lies, we are simply asking the Saints to pray for us, not to us. We're also not worshiping them, so I don't know why the Ten Commandments apply.

And Telekinesis is the moving of objects with your brain.

[GratiaDei]

So, in a prayer, you would say, "Dear great-grandmother, pray to God for my friend's surgery to go well." If that sounded irreverent or offensive, I apologize, I'm just trying to get a sense of what you mean.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Here is a hymn we sing to Mary: Since you are higher than all in heaven and on earth, more glorious than the Cherubim and most honored of all creation, Christ has given you to Christians as defender and protectress. Therefore we sing to you, O Lady and refuge of all, and we celebrate with joy the holy feast of your Protection. Pray to Christ that He may grant us great mercy!

To give some more background, Catholics and Orthodox use prescribed prayers, meaning that they are written out by others and we are reciting them. There is a place for freeform prayer but that place, for us, is secondary to prescribed prayers.

[Helios]

Half-a-sec...

Higher than all in Heaven? Does that mean higher than God? Or is He not in Heaven?

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, it is referring to all of creation not the Creator. Notice in the same sentence it talks about Cherubim and creation. The context clears up the misconception that Mary is higher than God.