If you think praying to the saints is weird...
Oh, I get it. Not that heaven. But Mary is then higher than all the rest of us mortals on earth?
-
Eleventh Doctor
- Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
- Posts: 4769
- Joined: February 2013
She is to be called blessed by all generations and was the mother of God, we should venerate her for that.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
-
GratiaDei
- Cookies & Creme
- Posts: 451
- Joined: February 2013
- Location: Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
Mary was an obedient woman, and she was blessed by God in that he allowed her to bear Jesus, but she is never mentioned in the Bible as being better than any other person. We should respect her just as we would any other person who did the will of God, but to say that she is the highest if all creation isn't right. "And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:49, 50. I don't understand why the fact that she was Jesus' earthly mother makes her any better than the rest of us.
-
Eleventh Doctor
- Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
- Posts: 4769
- Joined: February 2013
I can see where you're coming from but for me the witness of the Early Church from the very earliest writings after the New Testament tell me that they held Mary to be the highest of all creation and I choose to continue that witness. She was more than just Jesus' earth mother, she is Theotokos or Birthgiver of God, to say otherwise to me splits Christ's nature. She didn't just give birth to Christ's human nature after all but both natures undivided.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
-
Bethany Shepard
- Moose Tracks
- Posts: 3907
- Joined: November 2012
- Location: I'm A Leo, So Everywhere At Once
WowGratiaDei wrote:Mary was an obedient woman, and she was blessed by God in that he allowed her to bear Jesus, but she is never mentioned in the Bible as being better than any other person. We should respect her just as we would any other person who did the will of God, but to say that she is the highest if all creation isn't right. "And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matthew 12:49, 50. I don't understand why the fact that she was Jesus' earthly mother makes her any better than the rest of us.
That was nicely put, Missy! *hands GratiaDei a soap box* Keep going!"I am not a demon. I am a lizard, a shark, a heat-seeking panther.
I want to be Bob Denver on acid playing the accordion."
-Nicolas Cage
I want to be Bob Denver on acid playing the accordion."
-Nicolas Cage
Mother of God?
Okay...while I agree that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ's human form, she is not the mother of God.
Unlike Nimrod's mother was purported to be, but whole 'nother conversation there.
Yes, Mary was blessed, but it wasn't because of anything she did or was. She was just as human as we are.
And we're getting a slight off topic here. This would be more apropos for the Christian vs. Catholic forum.
Okay...while I agree that Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ's human form, she is not the mother of God.
Unlike Nimrod's mother was purported to be, but whole 'nother conversation there.
Yes, Mary was blessed, but it wasn't because of anything she did or was. She was just as human as we are.
And we're getting a slight off topic here. This would be more apropos for the Christian vs. Catholic forum.
-
Pound Foolish
- Coffee Biscotti
- Posts: 3347
- Joined: June 2012
- Location: Kidsboro
- Contact:
Succinctly enough put, if incorrect, yes.
Just briefly, you seem to use that verse to try to say, "Jesus says many people are his mother, so why should Mary have a higher station because of her motherhood?" Firstly, that is not the only thing, she also never sinned:
The angel Gabriele said, "Hail, full of grace, the lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28.) The phrase full of grace is a translation of the Greek word, kecharitomene. Which means it refers to a specific characteristic of Mary.
The traditional translation "full of grace" is sounder than the newer one in some recent editions of the Bible, that give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was that indeed, to be sure, but the Greek implies more than that, and it never even mentions the word for "daughter."
The grace given to Mary is of a PERMANENT and unique kind.
Kecharitomene is passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill our endow wit grace." Since this term is in perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but is enjoying its affects in the present.
PS, Helios posted while i was, and she is quite right about one thing. This debate would indeed be more fit for Christian vs. Catholic, this conversation is a separate one from the topic.
Secondly, though we are indeed all part of the family of God, that does not mean we do not see certain people, to use your word, as "better" than our own selves or even the world in general. Suppose you were in the presence of a random broker and Mother Theresa. Whom would you treat with more respect?
Now then, I shall probably not post in here again and let the Good Doctor take it from here. (I"m invovled in a lot of debates already.) So just answer Good Doctor please, Gratia.
Just briefly, you seem to use that verse to try to say, "Jesus says many people are his mother, so why should Mary have a higher station because of her motherhood?" Firstly, that is not the only thing, she also never sinned:
The angel Gabriele said, "Hail, full of grace, the lord is with you!" (Luke 1:28.) The phrase full of grace is a translation of the Greek word, kecharitomene. Which means it refers to a specific characteristic of Mary.
The traditional translation "full of grace" is sounder than the newer one in some recent editions of the Bible, that give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was that indeed, to be sure, but the Greek implies more than that, and it never even mentions the word for "daughter."
The grace given to Mary is of a PERMANENT and unique kind.
Kecharitomene is passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill our endow wit grace." Since this term is in perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but is enjoying its affects in the present.
PS, Helios posted while i was, and she is quite right about one thing. This debate would indeed be more fit for Christian vs. Catholic, this conversation is a separate one from the topic.
Secondly, though we are indeed all part of the family of God, that does not mean we do not see certain people, to use your word, as "better" than our own selves or even the world in general. Suppose you were in the presence of a random broker and Mother Theresa. Whom would you treat with more respect?
Now then, I shall probably not post in here again and let the Good Doctor take it from here. (I"m invovled in a lot of debates already.) So just answer Good Doctor please, Gratia.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
PS to Poundy: Thanks for finally admitting I'm a girl...ma'am. 
And though you probably won't see this...I'd treat both the broker and Mother Theresa with the same respect.
Reason?
They're adults.
And though you probably won't see this...I'd treat both the broker and Mother Theresa with the same respect.
Reason?
They're adults.
-
Pound Foolish
- Coffee Biscotti
- Posts: 3347
- Joined: June 2012
- Location: Kidsboro
- Contact:
Great deeds and kindness are unworthy of honor?
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
A priest at my church said something interesting the other day about Mary, for it was the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. I'll summarize what he said.
If you could design your own mother, choose her personality and traits and characteristics, wouldn't you want to make her the perfect mom? I mean you wouldn't make her with flaws, problems, addictions, etc.
We all know that God had picked Mary to be Jesus' mother even before she was conceived. He had a plan for her. So why wouldn't he make her sinless, for she would be carrying God's own son!
If you could design your own mother, choose her personality and traits and characteristics, wouldn't you want to make her the perfect mom? I mean you wouldn't make her with flaws, problems, addictions, etc.
We all know that God had picked Mary to be Jesus' mother even before she was conceived. He had a plan for her. So why wouldn't he make her sinless, for she would be carrying God's own son!
-
Eleventh Doctor
- Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
- Posts: 4769
- Joined: February 2013
To say that Mary only gave birth to Christ's human form is a heresy known as Nestorianism. She gave birth to Christ fully human and fully God, there is no disunity between His natures.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
-
Arkán Dreamwalker
- Pistachio
- Posts: 1093
- Joined: August 2012
- Location: The Destiny Islands
- Contact:
The point of this topic pretty much was to take care of all this talk in one swoop, however, since people have been raising covered objections, it would seem the link does not seem to work for some people, (yeah right) so I am posting the whole thing on here.
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
Praying to the Saints
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.
Can They Hear Us?
One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.
Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
One Mediator
Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.
"No Contact with the dead"
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).
God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.
Overlooking the Obvious
Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:
"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?
"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.
"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).
If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.
The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.
"Directly to Jesus"
Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.
The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.
Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.
In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
In Heaven and On Earth
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
~ Walker in Dreams
@ PF: No one said great deeds and kindness aren't worthy of honor. I was just saying that I wouldn't treat Mother Theresa with greater respect. I tend to look more at who the person is than at what they do. Of course, it's not who they are, it's what they do, that defines them. *shrugs* I guess I just don't see the difference.
-
Bethany Shepard
- Moose Tracks
- Posts: 3907
- Joined: November 2012
- Location: I'm A Leo, So Everywhere At Once
Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.
"I am not a demon. I am a lizard, a shark, a heat-seeking panther.
I want to be Bob Denver on acid playing the accordion."
-Nicolas Cage
I want to be Bob Denver on acid playing the accordion."
-Nicolas Cage
-
Pound Foolish
- Coffee Biscotti
- Posts: 3347
- Joined: June 2012
- Location: Kidsboro
- Contact:
You would treat them the same? So you respect the deed, yet somehow you wouldn't respect the person even more for the deed? You would show no more deference to Mother Theresa then to a random person? When a soldier is awarded a medal for saving lives, he or she doesn't deserve it?
PS, you haven't addressed Eleventh Dr. yet.
PS, you haven't addressed Eleventh Dr. yet.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
Yeah, I guess I don't. I mean, I don't really see the difference between them...they're both humans, God loves them, He sent Jesus to die for them...what's the difference?
11th was talking to me?
Or do you mean on the Catholic one? In which case, I was out most of yesterday, so that's why.
11th was talking to me?
Or do you mean on the Catholic one? In which case, I was out most of yesterday, so that's why.
-
Eleventh Doctor
- Chocolate Bacon Drizzle
- Posts: 4769
- Joined: February 2013
I said to say that Mary only gave birth to Christ's human form is a heresy known as Nestorianism. She gave birth to Christ fully human and fully God, there is no disunity between His natures. She did not just give birth to His humanity.
No worries, I understand why you missed it, I made the point right before that big wall of text.
No worries, I understand why you missed it, I made the point right before that big wall of text.
King of The Lands of Rhetoric, Lord Ruler of the Debate Vampires, and Duke of Quebec
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
"It's particularly ignorant to assume malicious or ignorant intentions behind an opinion with which one disagrees." ~Connie
-
JuniorMints
- Vanilla
- Posts: 16
- Joined: December 2013
- Location: I know!... No, I don't! -Harlow Doyle
Amen and Amen.Helios wrote:Um...the saints...are....
DEAD.
And they're human.
It won't help you any to pray to a saint than it would to pray to...well...yourself. Isn't it an extra-Biblical thing? I mean, when was the last time you heard about Paul praying to Peter?
And asking a dead person to intercede for me...it's against logic. THEY'RE DEAD.
"Gotcha covered, big guy!"
-Connie Kendall, The No Factor
-Connie Kendall, The No Factor
-
Pound Foolish
- Coffee Biscotti
- Posts: 3347
- Joined: June 2012
- Location: Kidsboro
- Contact:
Why on earth would anyone say amen to a bunch of hooey? The Kingdom of Heaven is not of the dead but of the living.
Basically, Mints, as the arti9cle said, the Bible does say that the saints pray for us, ""[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
So, do you just rely on your own prayers, or you ask your friends to pray for you? Don't holy people like saints tend to pray more than one's friends? So doesn't it stand to reason you would ask the saints to pray for you? Well?
PS, a lot of you Protestants on this thread are just replying to points made by your side. I hope you're not actually only reading those points, thus nullifying any value you might add to the conversation.
Basically, Mints, as the arti9cle said, the Bible does say that the saints pray for us, ""[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
So, do you just rely on your own prayers, or you ask your friends to pray for you? Don't holy people like saints tend to pray more than one's friends? So doesn't it stand to reason you would ask the saints to pray for you? Well?
PS, a lot of you Protestants on this thread are just replying to points made by your side. I hope you're not actually only reading those points, thus nullifying any value you might add to the conversation.
“I absolutely demand of you and everyone I know that they be widely read in every [censored] field there is: in every religion and every art form and don’t tell me you haven’t got time! There’s plenty of time.”~ Ray Bradbury
-
JuniorMints
- Vanilla
- Posts: 16
- Joined: December 2013
- Location: I know!... No, I don't! -Harlow Doyle
The Bible doesn't say that the saints pray for us, it only says prayers of the saints.Pound Foolish wrote:Why on earth would anyone say amen to a bunch of hooey? The Kingdom of Heaven is not of the dead but of the living.
Basically, Mints, as the arti9cle said, the Bible does say that the saints pray for us, ""[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).
So, do you just rely on your own prayers, or you ask your friends to pray for you? Don't holy people like saints tend to pray more than one's friends? So doesn't it stand to reason you would ask the saints to pray for you? Well?
PS, a lot of you Protestants on this thread are just replying to points made by your side. I hope you're not actually only reading those points, thus nullifying any value you might add to the conversation.
Assuming you are a Christian, that makes you a saint. I wouldn't pray to you, would I? And you wouldn't pray to me, would you? That would be idolatry. It doesn't say in the Bible to pray to the saints, and until I have biblical proof, I won't.
-- Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:58 pm --
The prayers of the saints are not the prayers people have prayed to the saints, but the prayers the saints prayed.