Once Saved always Saved?

[Renae]

So is it our works that are keeping us saved? Like, we need to work to remain saved, and if we stop doing good works and start doing bad enough works, we are no longer saved by God's grace alone?

If we're saved by grace alone, that means that we are kept saved by grace alone. Our good behavior and not rejecting God don't keep us saved; God keeps us saved.

Furthermore, if you're a saved person, God has given you a new heart that no longer delights in doing evil. If you're delighting in sin and willfully rejecting God, that's just evidence that you never got a new heart.

And what about the verses that talk about the Holy Spirit as the seal of our salvation until the final day of redemption? Is the Holy Spirit just going to up and leave us when we sin enough? Isn't He supposed to help us to fight against our sin? Why would He just leave us to ourselves when He's supposed to continually sanctify us and keep us until we die?

It just doesn't make sense that someone who has had their sins washed away forever--their past, present, and future sins have been totally forgiven--could become "un-forgiven" and guilty before God again. If Jesus took the wrath of God on the cross for them, then how can the wrath of God abide on them again?

Oh my! Christian! Somehow I always agree with what you say!!! You have a wonderful gift of being able to explain your thoughts so clearly!!

[King Butter Turtle]

When you are saved, you are born again. Is it possible to be unborn? Well, your mother may have a few things to say about that Ultimately, there is no way to be "unborn".

Death says hello. Yes, it is possible to be 'unborn' - everything has an opposite.

Jesus states, in John 10:27-30, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER perish. neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand, my Father who gave them to me, is greater then all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one." He clearly states that nothing, and no one, can pluck believers out of His Family. Now, does that mean we can simply up and sin carelessly? Like Renae said, NO. God expects us, as Christians to be mature enough to repent of our sin, not to go thru the whole salvation process again.

Never perishing is an element of salvation - it does not mean that salvation itself can never perish. As for 'no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand', pluck is a transitive verb - that is; the doer of the action if different than the receiver of the action. ('any man' is not the same as 'them' - otherwise he would have said 'themselves') So, no, you can't re-separate someone else from God but, this verse says nothing about weather or not you can re-separate yourself from him.

So is it our works that are keeping us saved? Like, we need to work to remain saved, and if we stop doing good works and start doing bad enough works, we are no longer saved by God's grace alone?

If we're saved by grace alone, that means that we are kept saved by grace alone. Our good behavior and not rejecting God don't keep us saved; God keeps us saved.

We're saved by grace through faith. Salvation is dependent on a relationship with Christ, correct? All relationships have two sides thus, part of salvation depends on God and part depends on us. The grace part - that's God, the faith - that's us. So, no, God will never leave us - that's not the issue. The issue is weather or not we're capable of leaving God. Since the faith part of the equation is entirely dependent on our own free will, it's certainly possible.

[Striped Leopard]

So is it our works that are keeping us saved? Like, we need to work to remain saved, and if we stop doing good works and start doing bad enough works, we are no longer saved by God's grace alone?

If we're saved by grace alone, that means that we are kept saved by grace alone. Our good behavior and not rejecting God don't keep us saved; God keeps us saved.

We're saved by grace through faith. Salvation is dependent on a relationship with Christ, correct? All relationships have two sides thus, part of salvation depends on God and part depends on us. The grace part - that's God, the faith - that's us. So, no, God will never leave us - that's not the issue. The issue is weather or not we're capable of leaving God. Since the faith part of the equation is entirely dependent on our own free will, it's certainly possible.

Ah, see, this is where you're wrong. From the part of the verse that you posted, that would be a totally logical conclusion to come to. The problem is, there's more to the verse. The verse goes on to say, "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Now, it's easy to dismiss that and say that the grace is a gift of God, and the faith is of us. But the Greek word for "that" in that verse is in the neuter form, whereas both "grace" and "faith" are feminine words. Therefore, the only thing that "that" could be referring to is the whole phrase: "By grace through faith." All of salvation is a gift from God. No part of it can be attributed to us. By grace, we have the faith to believe on Him. He gives us the grace and the faith. That's not disputable. That's what the verse says.

Additionally, if half of our salvation is dependent upon our free will, wouldn't that mean that we get half the credit for being saved? Wouldn't it make more sense, as this verse says, that God is in control of all of our salvation, and therefore He deserves all of the credit and the glory for it?

By the way, what do you think about the verse that says, "He who started a good work in you will surely finish it, until the day of Christ Jesus" ?

[Renae]

"1. The Greek word translated “salvation” (soteria) denotes “deliverance and preservation” [1]; “Safety, preservation from danger or destruction. It is contrasted with death (2 Cor. 7:10) and destruction (Phil. 1:28)” [2]. It also means “wholeness” or “health.” Fundamentally, we are saved from two things: sin and death. We are saved from sin and death by justification and the corresponding gift of everlasting life.

Therefore we define “salvation” as a state of being saved, rescued or delivered from something that threatens death or destruction, that is, being brought to a place of safety. The Hebrew word for “salvation” also means a place of safety (yasha). Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place.


2. “Justification” is the judicial act of God whereby the sinner is declared free from the penalty of sin by his faith in the substitutionary death of Jesus Christ. This act is done “freely” (i.e., “without a cause”) by His grace (Rom. 3:24). Therefore our faith does not cause God to grant us salvation, but provides a condition upon which He can do His work. Without some condition for us to meet, we could not choose to receive it. In His grace and mercy, God chose faith (trust), the simplest act of the human mind.

It is therefore by His work, not ours, that we are made righteous, which is the state of being justified. We receive this status by grace through faith in His work on our behalf. Since our works did not earn for us this status, our works or lack of works cannot negate it either, once we have received it. It is not logical to argue that what is acquired exclusively by the gracious work of another and deposited to our account can be negated by our subsequent works or lack of works.

5. It is not logical to argue that we are able to pay any of the debt demanded for our salvation. It must be paid for by another or we are not able to acquire it. As the downpayment was made by another, so must the remaining “payment” be made by another. This “payment in full” is called “propitiation,” referring to the completed work of Jesus Christ. To argue that Christ did not make the payment in full, but requires us to make the remaining payments to ensure our salvation, is to be what the Scripture calls “an enemy of the cross of Christ” (Phil. 3:18). "

I didn't write this, but take the time to read it

[King Butter Turtle]

We're saved by grace through faith. Salvation is dependent on a relationship with Christ, correct? All relationships have two sides thus, part of salvation depends on God and part depends on us. The grace part - that's God, the faith - that's us. So, no, God will never leave us - that's not the issue. The issue is weather or not we're capable of leaving God. Since the faith part of the equation is entirely dependent on our own free will, it's certainly possible.

Ah, see, this is where you're wrong. From the part of the verse that you posted, that would be a totally logical conclusion to come to. The problem is, there's more to the verse. The verse goes on to say, "By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Now, it's easy to dismiss that and say that the grace is a gift of God, and the faith is of us. But the Greek word for "that" in that verse is in the neuter form, whereas both "grace" and "faith" are feminine words. Therefore, the only thing that "that" could be referring to is the whole phrase: "By grace through faith." All of salvation is a gift from God. No part of it can be attributed to us. By grace, we have the faith to believe on Him. He gives us the grace and the faith. That's not disputable. That's what the verse says.

Well, I didn't post that verse - I only quoted from someone else who did, which is why the last part wasn't used. But, you're right that all of salvation is a gift from God - I didn't mean to contradict that. But, if you make a gift and set it on a table, it doesn't do any good. It's up to us to open it up; to accept God's gift of salvation. We do that by choosing to put our faith in him - if we choose to no longer have faith in him, we can always give the gift back.

I'm not sure what you mean by him giving us the faith. He gives us the ability to have faith but, what we believe is up to us.

Additionally, if half of our salvation is dependent upon our free will, wouldn't that mean that we get half the credit for being saved? Wouldn't it make more sense, as this verse says, that God is in control of all of our salvation, and therefore He deserves all of the credit and the glory for it?

Grace and Faith are the two things that are required for Salvation but, they don't fit together like puzzle pieces. Rather, God puts the grace out there first (prevenient grace) and our part in the process is merely accepting it. We don't add anything to it ourselves so, we don't deserve any credit but, God doesn't control our salvation, as you put it. He doesn't make sure everyone has it (universalism) nor does he decide who will be forced to accept it and who won't be able to accept it (Calvinism). Rather, he offers it and we accept it. (That is - he offers it to everyone and some of us accept it.) So, yes, we do have a role in our own salvation. We do not, however, provide for any part of the justification ourselves (salvation by works) thus, Christ alone deserves all the glory and honor for his sacrifice.

By the way, what do you think about the verse that says, "He who started a good work in you will surely finish it, until the day of Christ Jesus" ?

Are you suggesting that salvation is a process completed by the holy spirit over time?

[Aaron Wiley]

...if you make a gift and set it on a table, it doesn't do any good. It's up to us to open it up; to accept God's gift of salvation. We do that by choosing to put our faith in him - if we choose to no longer have faith in him, we can always give the gift back.

I'm not sure what you mean by him giving us the faith. He gives us the ability to have faith but, what we believe is up to us.

The problem here is that you're coming at the argument from the assumption that everyone in the conversation is Arminian. Christian's a Calvinist, which means that this entire conversation could have an entirely different conclusion compared to his culture's interpretation of the scriptures.

Let's not hi-jack this thread with an Arminianism vs. Calvinism debate though. We have a topic for that right over here if you want to discuss the differences of our beliefs further.

[King Butter Turtle]

...if you make a gift and set it on a table, it doesn't do any good. It's up to us to open it up; to accept God's gift of salvation. We do that by choosing to put our faith in him - if we choose to no longer have faith in him, we can always give the gift back.

I'm not sure what you mean by him giving us the faith. He gives us the ability to have faith but, what we believe is up to us.

The problem here is that you're coming at the argument from the assumption that everyone in the conversation is Arminian. Christian's a Calvinist, which means that this entire conversation could have an entirely different conclusion compared to his culture's interpretation of the scriptures.

Oh shoot, I forgot not everyone's an Arminian. Well, that stinks. The problem is that they're so connected, it's practically the same issue; does God randomly pluck mindless robots like he's playing the claw game or do we actually have the capacity to love God? If God controls everything then we're capable of being unsaved just as little as we're capable of being saved (not at all) but, if we actually have a free will, then we can choose what to do with it. There just isn't really anything more to this issue. You could say... this thread was predestined to ending up like this.

[Rosy]

Okay, a bunch of people didn't get my explanation earlier. My question is, do you believe that someone will be saved if they don't want their salvation? Or if they don't think they need it anymore?

[MaryBeth_13]

Umm well, I believe even if they give up God they are still saved, also I believe that once God is done with that person and they give up on him he takes them home, if God cant use us then there's no point of us being on earth.

[gabbygirl17]

I do believe there is a thing called back sliding. Where u turn away from God.

[Renae]

Okay, a bunch of people didn't get my explanation earlier. My question is, do you believe that someone will be saved if they don't want their salvation? Or if they don't think they need it anymore?

I don't believe this is possible. What I'm saying is that I believe that if you were TRULY saved you would never "not want your salvation". If this did happen then you were never saved originally.

[gabbygirl17]

Okay, a bunch of people didn't get my explanation earlier. My question is, do you believe that someone will be saved if they don't want their salvation? Or if they don't think they need it anymore?

I don't believe this is possible. What I'm saying is that I believe that if you were TRULY saved you would never "not want your salvation". If this did happen then you were never saved originally.

Some people think its to hard and give up even if they have really gotten saved.

[Renae]

Okay, a bunch of people didn't get my explanation earlier. My question is, do you believe that someone will be saved if they don't want their salvation? Or if they don't think they need it anymore?

I don't believe this is possible. What I'm saying is that I believe that if you were TRULY saved you would never "not want your salvation". If this did happen then you were never saved originally.

Some people think its to hard and give up even if they have really gotten saved.

This person was never really saved. Once someone experiences salvation, it is so overpowering! God gives you the strength to move on and to keep on. I think its false to say that such a person (who decided to give up) ever was saved. This person is taking salvation as such a trivial thing, and God does not deal that way.

[Aaron Wiley]

@Renae People change. Their circumstances change. Their life styles change. This can all potentially add up to their beliefs changing as well.

[Renae]

@Aaron
And what I'm saying is that for the true Christian, even when circumstances change, he remains true to God! The point that I keep trying to make is that for such people as you all have been describing, salvation never truly was theirs!

-- Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:05 am --

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us, for if they had been of us they would have remained with us, but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."

[Rosy]

So, if this person were to die before they rejected Christ, they still would go to Heaven?

[Renae]

So, if this person were to die before they rejected Christ, they still would go to Heaven?

could you clarify about which person you are speaking? thank you

[Rosy]

I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but what I'm saying is, if somebody got saved, than a few years later decided he didn't need God, you say he wasn't ever saved. But what if, before he rejected God, he died? Would he go to Heaven?

[Renae]

No he would not because he was never saved. Now if he were trully saved then he would never even have the possibility of rejecting and if he would die he would go to heaven.

-- Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:28 pm --

I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but what I'm saying is, if somebody got saved, than a few years later decided he didn't need God, you say he wasn't ever saved. But what if, before he rejected God, he died? Would he go to Heaven?

You said " what If someone got saved,than a few years later decided he didn't need God, you say he wasn't ever saved"
Yes so that means the story should have gone" what if someone thought they were saved" ( if we were to go according to my beliefs)

[gabbygirl17]

My uncle used to be a Christian then back slide later on and they divorced so he's basically my ex uncle anyway he wasn't really a Christian in the first place?