Debating Catholicism

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
Pound Foolish
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Yowch. It seems that "quote" is indeed an absolutely dreadful misquote, an outright condensation to make it sound far more convincing than it really is. I must be more careful about that sort of thing in future evidently. Thank you so much for telling me, I shan't use that misquote in future. Still, according to the thread you sited, the quote goes:

"With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal Church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source; nor did they take thought that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy to have entrance." (Cyprian, Letter 59 (55), 14 to Cornelius of Rome, c. AD 252)

The misquote is dishonest, there is not a word there about, "from whence no errors can come." But the actual quote certainly refers to "the chair of Peter" and says it is, "the principal church." Further, that it is where "sacerdotal unity has its source." So he seems to be mentioning rather special abilities that he ascribes only to "the chair of Peter" and no one else.
Last edited by Pound Foolish on Thu May 12, 2016 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eleventh Doctor
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If you notice after Church it says [at Rome] which means that is not part of the original quote. So I agree the chair Peter, which I contend is shared by all and not just Rome, is the source of sacerdotal unity.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote: If you notice after Church it says [at Rome] which means that is not part of the original quote.
It certainly does which is why I did not mention it. Since you bring it up though, for what it's worth, the quote does mention Rome:

"After such things as these, moreover, they still dare— a false bishop having been appointed for them by, heretics— to set sail and to bear letters from schismatic and profane persons to the throne of Peter, and to the chief church whence priestly unity takes its source; and not to consider that these were the Romans whose faith was praised in the preaching of the apostle, to whom faithlessness could have no access." (Emphasis added.)

Cyprian's letter contains another reference to Rome as well:

"After they were detected and confounded in this their lie (only five who had made shipwreck coming together, and these being excommunicated by us), they sailed to Rome with the reward of their lies, as if the truth could not sail after them, and convict their lying tongues by proof of the certainty."

So it does seem to be speaking of Rome, and, consequently, presumably the church thereof. Being that was evidently the place at the center of this conflict.

Incidentally, the letter also contains this juicy quote:
"Nevertheless, Peter, upon whom by the same Lord the Church had been built, speaking one for all, and answering with the voice of the Church, says, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life; and we believe, and are sure that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God..." (Emphasis added.) Doesn't really prove anything, still, it shows early Christianity saw the church being built on Peter as worth mentioning.

If you want to read the letter: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050654.htm
Eleventh Doctor wrote:So I agree the chair Peter, which I contend is shared by all and not just Rome, is the source of sacerdotal unity.
So the Chair of Peter actually means the "Chair of Everyone"? Right, and where does the letter say that? Moreover, where does any document from an ancient, respected church leader and scholar say that?

You did say you were done and I respect that. You don't have to reply if you don't want to, Good Dr. I won't pretend that I won of course just because you're tired of this after literally years. :) That being said, as long as you reply I'll reply. As long as you give me candy I'll take the candy.
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Wretched Sinner
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Whew, It's been so long that I forgot that I even created this thread. Looking back at my posts from 6 years ago is pretty cringy. I've grown a lot as a Christian over the years and I've decided to revisit this thread and state my beliefs on the topic.

The Roman Catholic Church is not truly Christian. It rejects the doctrine of sola scriptura (scripture alone) which states that Scripture is the only authority for the faith and practice of Christianity. The Catholic Church asserts that the Church and the Pope have equal authority to the scriptures. The Catholic Church also has very skewed views on baptism. It holds the belief of baptismal regeneration, that is, being born again through baptism.

Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Communion is meant to be taken in fellowship with other believers as a reminder of Christ's finished work on the cross. It is not a re-offering of the sacrifice of Christ and is not the literal, physical body and blood of Christ as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches that believers who have not sufficiently atones for their sins will spend time in purgatory. The living, on Earth, can help prod their spirit along to heaven through prayer or paying indulgences. Purgatory is taught nowhere in scripture and if you believe in Christ but have not repented of your sins then you are not saved.

The Roman Catholic Church asserts seven sacraments, though only two are taught in scriptures, those being baptism and the Lord's Supper.

The Roman Catholic beliefs are flawed, deceptive, and false. Though I believe some Catholics may truly be saved, the Catholic Church is not truly Christian and fully adhering the teaching of Catholicism would mean that you are not saved as the Catholic Church does not teach "justification by faith alone in Christ alone".
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Eleventh Doctor
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Your beliefs seem unchanged from 6 years ago and are equally cringy today as they were back then.
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Tea Ess
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Does the Catholic Church have any guidelines about what constitutes "unjust discrimination" towards queer people? What kinds of things does it do to mitigate this discrimination, and has it supported any legislative efforts against it, especially in countries where being queer carries a very real risk of bodily injury, imprisonment, or social disenfranchisement?

Less loaded question: What do Catholics take complementarianism to mean? I’m asking because, at least in my personal experience, Catholics and evangelicals seem to approach gender roles in marriage pretty differently, and I’m curious if this is driven more by a difference in culture or doctrine. Do you think the emphasis on Marian devotion plays a part in this?
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AioFan7
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DEAR CATHOLICS: (And Odyssey Scoop forum members)
I don't want to offend anyone. But simply point out the errors in the church.

Catholicism isn't of God. It's a "counterfeit church." For instance, there's the Holocaust. Martin Luther nailed 95 theses to the Catholic church door. Where does the word Pope come up in scripture? It was made up. Catholicism was created by the devil to lead many people astray. There's confession. Where in the Bible does it say that men can forgive sins? These "Holymen" aren't empowered by God. The Jesuits are very secretive about things. Their power isn't of God either. An ex-Catholic Jesuit called, Father Alberto came out of the Catholic church because of its horrors. He died about 30 years ago. But he is still well known. Since this is a kids site, (and I'm still a kid) I won't describe the horrors that he discovered. Just that it was awful. The Catholic Church doesn't line up with the Bible. I'm not trying to offend any Catholic reading this. But I am doing this out of love because I want you to know the truth! I can't explain it all hear, but for adults, I recommend you check this link out for a book titled, "Answers to my Catholic friends." I don't recommend kids read this book since the content is more for adults. I hope that this answers this discussions questions! http://www.spiritualwarfareschool.com/l ... riends.pdf

Mormonism
I can't say much on that since it's been awhile since I checked into that.

-- Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:31 pm --

Also, I love your post Wretched Sinner! And I'm not saying all Catholics aren't saved to be clear.
Last edited by AioFan7 on Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pound Foolish
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lol
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Eleventh Doctor
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Why don't you actually look up "Father" Alberto and discover that he's a con man who made up these things? You're doing a poor job of not offending Catholics by claiming they are satanic. If you're actually interested in discussing these things let us know and we can go point by point of your post, even though most of them have been discussed in this thread already.
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AioFan7
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Okay, to be clear, I didn't read all of the posts in this thread since it is 26 pages long (so far) I only read the first few. It's been a while since I read up on him. (A few years probably) and I don't think he's a con man at all. There is more than one ex-jesuit that has had these claims. Also, I think you should check out that link I gave. It points out the hypocrisy in the Catholic "church" and lines it up with scripture. Also, Catholics believe that you get to heaven by works. This is not so. Since the Apostle Paul says in Eph 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Your right. I shouldn't just put "Father" Alberto up there to be an example. God's word is more powerful. As Captian Absolutely said, "And I have an entire Bible to back me up!" So, the book that's in the link can give you stuff based on scripture. You can't argue with God's word! Also, I assume you might have looked up Father Alberto and found that he is a "con man." This is a coverup. If you Eleventh Doctor can give me scripture to back up the Catholic "Church" then I would be happy to take a look at it.
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Eleventh Doctor
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So you claim Catholics believe that you get to heaven by works. Can you cite official Catholic doctrine or Catholic theologians that say that? I used to believe this too but then I talked to Catholics and learned that wasn't the case. Catholics believe, like St. James says, that faith without works is dead and since that is scripture I would hope you'd agree with them on that.

As for Alberto Rivera I heard that he's a con man from Cornerstone Magazine, a Protestant publication: http://web.archive.org/web/200512020842 ... ge.asp?228 Also Zondervan Publishers and the Southern Baptist Sunday School Board, Protestant organizations, banned his books from their stores. It is not just Catholic leaders who say he is a con man. Also just look into his life, he has changed his life story multiple times and claimed to have three doctorates before admitting that he got a degree from a diploma mill. He is a liar and a con man.
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AioFan7
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How do you know they aren't just covering up? Still, you didn't give me any biblical evidence. Plus, the Bible also says to "Search a matter out."
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Eleventh Doctor
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If the Catholics and the Protestants are all working together to cover up the truth about this one "ex-priest" then they seemed to have solved the Reformation.

I did cite the book of James, faith without works is dead. You still need to show me that Catholics say you need works to get into Heaven.
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AioFan7
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Must have overlooked/forgotten that Bible reference. Anyway, take Martian Luther for instance. The people were supposed to walk on their knees on stairs in order to possibly "make God sorry for them." So that he might have mercy on them. Also, isn't mass works? You have to do it continually to get to Heaven. There are many, many other examples.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Mass is a work, let me ask you this; do you go to church? If so do you have to do that to go to Heaven?
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AioFan7
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I will answer the church question in a PM or chat of some sort. I might explain that sometime, but not right now.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Catholics would say they go to Mass for the same reason you go to your church service. It's the same, it's not work based Salvation it's living a good Christian life.
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Mr. Clever
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I will jump in and add my 2 cents. Here is a rather morbid article with adult content talking on the sexual abuse cases:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971

I sit in my chair while I read this and shutter almost crying as a read this article. In a place filled with such evil, I would not consider God's work being done. And Eleventh Doctor, if you would like to make a claim that this is "fake news" or "blown out of proportion", that simply cannot do.

-- Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:41 pm --
Pound Foolish wrote:lol
Pound Foolish, you are stooping quite low to mock a new SS member who is only a kid and is honestly being more polite than most members on here? He apologized if he offended anyone in his post like three different times. Then again, you have always had low standards. I guess mocking defenseless children isn't too low for you. 0_0

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SirWhit
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AioFan7 wrote:For instance, there's the Holocaust.
???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_pers ... in_Germany

-- Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:27 pm --
TheDoctor wrote:
Pound Foolish wrote:lol
Pound Foolish, you are stooping quite low to mock a new SS member who is only a kid and is honestly being more polite than most members on here? He apologized if he offended anyone in his post like three different times. Then again, you have always had low standards. I guess mocking defenseless children isn't too low for you. 0_0

Sincerely, Me
Cool it.
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Eleventh Doctor
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TheDoctor wrote:I will jump in and add my 2 cents. Here is a rather morbid article with adult content talking on the sexual abuse cases:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971

I sit in my chair while I read this and shutter almost crying as a read this article. In a place filled with such evil, I would not consider God's work being done. And Eleventh Doctor, if you would like to make a claim that this is "fake news" or "blown out of proportion", that simply cannot do
Why would I do that? I think this entire situation is inexcusable and that the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church should resign en mass for covering this up for so long.
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