The Soda Shop Message Boards

I do not deny the historical significance but it is the historical teaching of the Church that those keys were given to all the Apostles not just to Peter.

As for the Sermon, I'm not seeing the significance of that sentence about the Apostolic See. I would say there are several Apostolic Sees.

Beg pardon? Where does it say they were given to all the Apostles? If you want to go that route there's very plain grammatical evidence Jesus was speaking to Peter if you want to get into it.

Yes, but he says The Apostolic See, which even then meant the Pope.

Can you cite again for clarity which verses it are that you think give Peter sole authority?

I still don't see the significance of that sermon.

Firstly, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against " Mat 16:18.

Secondly, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19)

The second one is significant due to the traditional authority of such a gesture as seen in: Is. 22:22 and Rev. 1:18

Those would be what the claim mainly rests on.

As for the sermon, two councils debated a spiritual issue. It ended by being sent to The Apostolic See, aka, the pope. St. Augustine sites this as evidence, "The question has been brought to an issue" and the idea that was being considered is an "error."

The full context of that verse is "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The power to bind and loose sins on earth is also given to all the Apostles at the Great Commission.

Yeah it was decided to be in error and then the decisions was sent to the Apostolic See after the fact.

Of course. I'm fully aware of the context. I only used what was relevant. I suppose I didn't indicate grammatically that it's shortened and I should've but oh well.

Yes, it is. That's why I am not discussing that, though Peter was singled out before the other Apostles. We base no claims on the power to bind and loose sins. We are speaking only of the keys and the historical and Biblical significance of that.

After the fact? Okay, but I'd be curious where you learned that. All the same, St. Augustine sites it as something significant.

I don't see it as being unique to him, I see the Church historically understanding Rome as being significant in that it is First Amongst Equals but that does not mean universal authority and jurisdiction.

Again, the keys were given only to Peter. You've said you agree the historical and Biblical significance of the keys to the kingdom. So why doesn't the traditional significance apply here?

Okay, that's how you historically see the church. But here St. Augustine seems to be seeing Rome has the last word, doesn't he?

No, I don't think St. Augustine is saying that. Because I don't think the historical and Biblical significance is "this means exactly universal jurisdiction and authority" that's your interpretation. I think it could just as easily be interpreted to be first among equals, which is still significant, but without universal jurisdiction and authority.

Then you're not agreeing with the traditional symbolism after all. Stewards had special authority from the king. They were not the, "first among equals."

They didn't have universal jurisdiction or authority either.

Correct, it's in a specific area. As with the Pope.

So the pope doesn't have universal authority and jurisdiction?

No, the pope only has authority over spiritual matters.

As opposed to what? And is that spiritual authority universal?

Actually Pf, the pope also has authority over the selection of bishops and cardinals, which could be classified as spiritual authority because bishops are a spiritual role. But I get what you mean.

As opposed to universal authority over any religious subject. So no, papal authority is not universal in the sense of the subjects it applies to.

If you mean universal in the sense of the literal area papal authority extends to, actually, yes. It is universal, it extends wherever a Catholic is in the world. A steward's authority is in the kingdom of the king who gave him the authority. The keys Jesus gives are to, "the kingdom" which can only mean Christ's kingdom. A pope's authority is in Christ's Kingdom, as that is the kingdom of the King who gave him the authority.

Well I think historically the bishop of Rome's authority has not always been universal like that and is an innovation. We've discussed this at length and our two sides have discussed this for nearly a thousand years, I really have no strong desire to continue this debate.

Yes, we're back to the historical case which we were discussing, we only veered off it to discuss verses at your request.

The historical case is perfectly strong. One quote you never got around to answering is:

Cyperean of Carthage, writing about 256, put it this way: "Would the heretics dare come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whence no errors can come?" (Letters 59 [55], 14)

If you're done then oh well, this has been fun. Thanks.

I never got around to answering it because that quote is mistranslated. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=59659