Debating Catholicism

What do you believe and why? Here's the place to discuss anything relating to church and God.
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Eleventh Doctor
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I would of course be one of those who says heaven is a place of interest and observation of God's people. But I can see why you make the assumption the other way. I think we understand where our disagreement is and what the other believes.

"Well, God wants us to have a relationship with him(He is our Father after all) so we talk to him." Then why talk to others at all? If we can talk to others and ask them to pray for us at all then asking the Saints to do the same is no different.
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Metal15
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Eleventh Doctor wrote: "Well, God wants us to have a relationship with him(He is our Father after all) so we talk to him." Then why talk to others at all? If we can talk to others and ask them to pray for us at all then asking the Saints to do the same is no different.
1. Asking the people in heaven to pray for us

2. Asking the people in heaven and Mary to intercede our prayers to God for us

3. Asking/praying to the people in heaven and Mary to assist us

The one I underlined is the concept that at the end of the day I'm not entirely opposed to. But I don't agree with the other ones at all.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Can I ask what you think the difference between asking for prayer and asking for intercession is?
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Metal15
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Well, right off the top of my head, I thought the difference was:

1. Asking the dudes in heaven for prayer just like people here on earth

2. Asking the dudes in heaven to "deliver" their prayers to God for them, so that he'll be more likely to listen.

Make sense? (Or the exact opposite? XD)
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Eleventh Doctor
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I mean aren't people on earth who are praying delivering our prayers to God? I mean they're praying for us to God, isn't that a form of delivery?

As to the more likely to listen, that would come from our belief that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. And those in heaven by definition are righteous.
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Metal15
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:I mean aren't people on earth who are praying delivering our prayers to God? I mean they're praying for us to God, isn't that a form of delivery?
Yeah, just not the kind we were talking about.
As to the more likely to listen, that would come from our belief that the prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. And those in heaven by definition are righteous.
I would repeat what I said earlier, with these verses 1 John 5:14-15, and Hebrews 4:16.
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Eleventh Doctor
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I would say those verses are talking about approaching God with confident that He will answer your prayers, we wouldn't disagree with that. But at the same I don't see those verses as saying we are the only one who can come to God with our prayers. And if we can ask others for prayer, why not ask the most righteous people we know? After all, James 5:16.
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Eleventh Doctor wrote:I would say those verses are talking about approaching God with confident that He will answer your prayers, we wouldn't disagree with that. But at the same I don't see those verses as saying we are the only one who can come to God with our prayers. And if we can ask others for prayer, why not ask the most righteous people we know? After all, James 5:16.
I didn't say that we were the only ones who could come to God with prayers. I said that we can come to God ourselves with our prayers, we don't need some other people to transfer our prayers over to him for us, that's what I meant. And there ain't nothing wrong with asking people for prayers, either. :)
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NateVONgreat
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Messianic Jews FTW.
HAHAH trolololo
Here in Israel, sating you're christian, makes people assume you are catholic, and their minds go to the crusaders, and Nazis and the pope, so it doesn't help when trying to witness.

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Wow. Nate. I don't know if you actually believe that stuff, or if your were just stating the general state of mind where you live. But if you do believe it... Someone needs history lessons.
Sorry, but you didn't mince words, so I shant either. I'm not mad, but that was... Well, definitely hard to ignore.
Wherever you got that info, it is one hundred percent myths. The crusades caused a lot of havoc, like any war, of course. Your point? War is war. War is a mess. The statistics of such things have since been exaggerated, records from the time period (as well as other evidence) show us clearly only so much bad came as a result of the crusades.
As for the Nazis, glad you brought that up. While the U.S., Great Britain, and other countries often refused to allow Jewish refugees to immigrate during the war, the Vatican was issuing tens of thousands of false documents to allow Jews to pass secretly as Christians so they could escape the Nazis. What is more, the financial aid Pius XII helped provide the Jews was very real. Lichten, Lapide, and other Jewish chroniclers record those funds as being in the millions of dollars—dollars even more valuable then than they are now.
Wherever your getting your info, try some better sources. The Pope deserves quite a bit of credit, don't you think?
By the way, even if all those things were true, what difference would it make? Do decades old actions somehow mean a billion people in the present day are idiots? Are the Japanese homicidal?
Last edited by Pound Foolish on Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Eleventh Doctor
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Nate didn't say these things were true just that people's minds wander to them as negatives when Christianity is mentioned.

But one thing on the Crusades, the sack of Constantinople by the Crusaders wasn't just war it went above and beyond the pale of normal war.
Last edited by Eleventh Doctor on Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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NateVONgreat
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No, I don't believe that, Eleventh Doctor is right, that is what the general Israeli/Jew believes, so it is a very touchy sensitive matter here.
And having history lessons doesn't help, that is what is taught here in history class.
I hate history class, and they fill it with baloney! (balognea, how ever you spell it)
They teach that the reason the world hates the Jews is because they say "we" killed Jesus (they won't even say his name, they say an abbreviation that stands for "let his memory and name be erased").

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Wow, Nate. That's sad. I'm pleased you withstand the pressure to give into those ideas, so thank you. That means a lot.
It's sad and amazing to see how many people on this site buy into groundless myths like that. Catholics worship Mary, Catholics aren't Christians, yada yada. Earlier in this topic, a member named Christian said with a straight facet that the Pope is the Antichrist (Christian, if you're reading this, one has to wonder how on earth you bought that.)
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NateVONgreat
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Have you ever learned in class EXACTLY what it says in the book, If I would have the ability to quote and show you I would, but at least in my school, classes (especially history, non-technical classes) are more of an open discussion, and I have heard several of my teachers say it.
Well, no one is perfect, I'm sure you and I have ideas that seem absurd to everyone else, like christian, so we all need to try our best to please God and do what he says.
About the Pope, I think he might work together with the anti-christ, but I imagine the Anti-Christ isn't Just a human, he would be super charismatic, with power from satan.
About standing the pressure from being taught that, it isn't anything big, I hear baloney on a daily basis, I just keep to myself and doodle or try to defend christians.
Jews say the romans killed Jesus,
they say we say they killed Jesus, (nice tongue twister there :P )
We know the truth, everyone in his own sin crucified Jesus,
and we all disagree, they act like everyone hates them and feel miserable for themselves. They don't understand that so many people (especially christians) love Israel, and God, and Jews, and want to help. I can't wait for the day that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ IS lord ( that includes Jews and gentiles!).

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Eleventh Doctor
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So these history professors are so scared to write down what they actually believe about this group that they say everyone hates? This sounds like a conspiracy theory to me.

Ahh, so the Pope isn't the anti-christ, he'll just work with the anti-christ. Yeah that makes it so much better.

I wouldn't say Christian, outside of America especially, love Israel. I think a lot of their actions border on war crimes and crimes against humanity. I don't want to help them in what they are doing and am much more on the side of Palestinian Christians and other Middle Eastern Christians.
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NateVONgreat
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I would hardly call my teachers professors, and who ever wrote the books, write what they were taught, by their teachers, no one cares about the truth. Karl Marx said that if you can rewrite the history books, you can rewrite history, people will believe it, and believe its the truth.
I want to help the arab christians and other christian in the ME too, I have friends that are missionaries there, or have believing relatives there.
But just so you know, there are TONS of christians who DO! you may not, but there are lots.

p.s.
" about this group " are you scared of writing "Jews".
I hope i'm wrong, but by your response, I feel like you don't like them, like an aniti-sematic or something?

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Eleventh Doctor
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I have been told by Jewish friends of mine that simply writing or saying Jew or Jews is offensive. I am in in no way anti-semite. I have Jewish ancestors and feel no ill will toward the Jewish people. I however do not equate the current state of Israel with any special Biblical prophecy or in any way view it as a special state that can do no wrong; that is the attitude I do not like. And currently supporting the state of Israel and ME Christians is a contradiction, given the abuse of ME Christians by the state of Israel and their ignoring of Christian persecution in their country.
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Pound Foolish wrote:a member named Christian said with a straight facet that the Pope is the Antichrist (Christian, if you're reading this, one has to wonder how on earth you bought that.)
Wait... I did?

*goes back to check*

EDIT: I guess I did post something from someone who held that view. I don't think I meant to articulate that as my personal viewpoint though. Many of the Reformers taught that the Pope was one of many people who could be characterized as Antichrist throughout history. I don't believe that Antichrist is (or will be) any one person. I'm not entirely sure what I believe about the subject. I know, however, that I would not so dogmatically--or with a straight face--say that Pope Francis is the Antichrist.
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NateVONgreat
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Eleventh Doctor wrote: And currently supporting the state of Israel and ME Christians is a contradiction
No it isn't, if we have the love of christ in us, we should love (that means support) everyone, as much as is up to us.
God loves everyone, don't you think we should love everyone too?
supporting Israel and ME terrorist groups is a contradiction, since we are at war, but the believers in those countries are ordinary people who love God, and who support Israel themselves, are under a lot of persecution, and we should be praying for them.
Supporting Israel is no big deal, because I'm here :D , God loves his chosen people, even though we mostly don't love or seek God.
Yesterday (day of atonement) I spent all day prating for Israel and our brothers in Muslim countries.
I really don't see how it is a contradiction.

Christian A. , I was skeptical about someone saying that the pope is the anti-christ, glad to see that that is taken care of.

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The Old Judge
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I wanna post! I do, I do!

I know many wonderful Catholic people on this side of the computer. I know at least two Catholics who I'm pretty confident are saved by the grace of God. One of them was at our church this morning. When I go on visitation, I meet many Catholics (We have two parishes in our town.) who can say confidently they have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior. However, I have talked to quite a few who have shut the door in my face with a resounding "I don't want to talk about this."

PF, you probably won't like me anymore for saying this. The Catholics weren't always the nice people they are today. I do not believe the Pope is the Antichrist. Pope Francis seems to be a wonderful person, and from what I've seen, seems to be better than Pope Benedict XVI. The Antichrist will not be Catholic, in my opinion, since the Antichrist will have sway over the whole world, and the Pope does not have the power of persuasion over the Muslims.

As you know, I am an IFB, or Independent Fundamental Baptist. There is a booklet, and you can call it blasphemous if you want, that is called The Trail of Blood, depicting how the Baptists were persecuted from A.D. 251 until the 1800s. We're still persecuted elsewhere in the world, but we were persecuted by Lutherans, Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans in the "Free World" until the 1800s. One of the things it states is how Wycliffe, Huss, Savonarola, Zwingle, Tyndale, and others were all put to death by the European churches. One interesting statement is an old quote from Cardinal Hosius back in 1524, which as you remember, is when the Roman Catholic Church almost went to pieces due to Luther and his work. Hosius was the president of the Council of Trent, and he stated: "Were it not that the Baptists have been grievously tormented and cut off with the knife during the past twelve hundred years, they would swarm in greater number than all the Reformers."
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