The Soda Shop Message Boards

Do stereotype. At least in making a story. That's a decision writers and directors make. Do you want a hand-crafted character for the originality? Or a stereotype for the amusement and familiarity? Choosing the latter is considered a legitimate choice if that's what's needed.

So why do some users have something against characters like Coach Fang? Do such stereotypes insult anyone? Why should they? Don't we still love characters like Fred Holstein?

Let's talk it up.

Coach Fang isn't even a stereotype of Asians..... He is just weird. Oh, we actually do have a regular Asian on the show that pastor who was in charge of Buck.

I guess the question is, why would you not want a hand-crafted character who just happens to be of a certain ethnicity? Why would you want stereotypes when more honest portrayals of people can be just as entertaining? It sounds like you want to defend stereotypes solely because they amuse you, which is a pretty poor reason to defend something that you seem to at least be aware is actually offensive to some people (and I don't think that you're the sort of person who wants to come across that way). =/

(In the interest of full disclosure, I should probably mention that I'm a middle-class white woman, and as a result cannot really speak from personal experience about the problems associated with ethnic stereotypes. If I do accidentally offend someone, please correct me so I can know how not to make that mistake in the future.)

I think that the reason people have complained about Chang Fang and not Fred Holstein is that characters of Asian descent—be they Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Pakistani, Indian, or something else entirely—are really underrepresented in Western media beyond the "Koan Asian", "smart Asian", or "airhead Asian" stereotypes; meanwhile, people of German descent are white, and there isn't exactly a dearth of well-rounded white characters in Western media. As a result, people tend to overlook the one guy who is a stereotype, because if someone doesn't like that, there are plenty of other, non-stereotypical white characters to choose from. I think you could make the argument that Holstein is a problem because you could see some stereotyping of immigrants (frankly, I had forgotten that Holstein even existed, so he's not a bad character to bring up; I don't know how one could make that argument, mostly because I haven't heard any episodes featuring him in a long time), but I think people see Chang Fang as a bigger deal simply because he isn't a white guy.

And I think people also see a problem because of the existence of the Parker family, which has, on the whole, done a fairly decent job of integrating non-white American heritage into the show, as well as the Washingtons, who (aside from the fairly blatant references to their race in their first episodes, which, in my opinion, would have been better placed after the family was established) were a non-white family that wasn't given a lot of Very Special Episode treatment. And both families have been treated like any other, rather than being Super Unique Special Snowflakes because of their ethnicity or being hit with stereotypes associated with their race (at least to my knowledge, which admittedly is greater in the realm of the Washingtons than the Parkers). I think that what people are saying is that they want more of that and less blatant stereotyping of minority groups that get pretty poor representation to begin with.

@Blitz: How is Chang Fang not a stereotype of Asians? I'm not trying to debate you; I'm curious to hear your commentary. On the one hand, you're saying that he's not a stereotype, but on the other hand, Mr. Whit's End (who, if my understanding is correct, is of Asian descent himself) and others have stated multiple times that they find the character to be offensive.

Re: the pastor who supervises Buck, AIOWiki isn't working right now, so I can't look it up, but I think his name was Juan Reyes—in which case he is more than likely Hispanic, not Asian.

Yeah, pastor Juan is Hispanic. He was Lucia's childhood acquaintance Juan from Never for Nothing.

Pound Foolish wrote:So why do some users have something against characters like Coach Fang? Do such stereotypes insult anyone? Why should they?.

Pound Foolish on the ToO wrote:It's the most natural and good thing in the world to want one's race (or partial race) portrayed accurately.

Soooo......umm......I think there's your answer.

I do find Chang Wang offensive. I just personally don't think of him as a stereotype. What exactly is a stereotype in your opinion.

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary wrote:stereotype: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

I think that the reason why Chang Fang could be considered by some to be a stereotype is because he fits the "Ludicrous Koan Asian" mold—the Asian guy who spouts off nonsensical proverbs and metaphors, often found playing a mentor-esque role. (Also, what kind of realistic name is "Chang Fang", anyway?)

Chang and Fang are actually both Asian names as ludicrous as it might sound. But i don't think they go together, pretty sure they're both last names.

Just like Chin is an Asian name. Short Asian names have worked in Occidental media because they are easy to remember. Case in point: Hanna-Barbara's mystery cartoon of the early 1970s, The Chan Clan.

The Old Judge wrote:Just like Chin is an Asian name.

Not relevant to the topic, but that makes me think of Switchfoot's first album "The Legend of Chin". Named after their Asian friend Chin, who appears in most of their music videos.

My stereotype of a Asian is more so an karate expert though.

Yes, but just because that's the stereotype that you know doesn't mean that it's the only one that exists.

I really hope what I am about to say won't offend anyone. I am truly fond of everyone I know on here, and I just disagree as I often do with you. This is a sensitive subject, I somehow didn't realize how sensitive it would be when I started it, but here goes.

Stereotypes work in fiction. I've read in various sources, including Writers Digest if I recall, that stereotypes can be the right choice. It just depends what you want. Stereotypes fill specific needs just like more original characters. Do circumstances call for freshness or for a familiar tried-and true type? You like some stereotypes, you must admit. If not... Well, I'll take tall, skinny, pale, four eyed, science and technology loving Eugene here and toss him out the window. (So that answers your objection about originality, Tiger.)

Now, Mr. Whit's End. (Are you really Asian? I have an Asian twin. Cool! How does that work?) Stories have certain characters and characters have certain races. If you live in Australia, you will be likely to write about Australians. All cultures create stories about their own race. By the same principle, if you're a pasty ol' white Caucasian, unless you force your story, you will likely get story ideas for mainly white characters.

So, when people say other races are underrepresented, of course they are. It's in proportion. Does that mean whites don't need to make an effort? Naturally we do, but not at the expense of our story. We need to try to tell more stories that happen to have other races. It's our duty and privilege. But we can't shoehorn our imaginations to politics. To make a character another race when they're not would be wrong.

Meanwhile, are stereotypes of other races such a slap? Any more than the many stereotypes we make of ourselves (and the rather amusing stereotypes other countries make of white Americans. I'm not offended by them.)

Coach Fang, for instance, speaks very poetically. How is that a bad thing? Is that even wholly inaccurate of the Japanese?

No. What comes to mind when you think of Japanese? Manga, technology and... Haiku! Haiku is one of the first things that come to mind. That's so amazing and special. How many cultures are like that? When you think of French or Germans, is an ancient form of poetry one of the first things that springs to mind? Nuh-uh. Japanese culture has clearly demonstrated a gift for colorful speech.

So let Coach Fang be a stereotype. He brings a special piece of humor as only stereotypes can. He's a likable person of integrity, and in no way an insult to the Japanese, nor wholly misrepresentation.

And, one last thing. In defense of us whiteys, we are getting better.

Oh...haha...people from my racial group (I'm Korean, coach Fang is Chinese), are being misrepresented as ancient old basketball coaches who speak in cryptic poetry all of the time. Haha, no.

Pound Foolish wrote:You like some stereotypes, you must admit. If not... Well, I'll take tall, skinny, pale, four eyed, science and technology loving Eugene here and toss him out the window. (So that answers your objection about originality, Tiger.)

No, it does not. I wondered when Eugene would be brought up. The difference between ethnic stereotypes and Eugene is that Eugene is a well-rounded character in his own right. His humor comes from strong, solid characterization; genius or not, Eugene has undergone character development such that he feels like a real person. Chang Fang has not. (We need to get something straight—are you referring solely to ethnic stereotypes? The title of this thread suggests that you're talking about stereotypes in general, but you only referred to racial stereotypes in your original post and that is what the majority of the post I'm quoting is about; if this is only to discuss race, then Eugene has no place here, because the nerd stereotype is based on personality.)

Pound Foolish wrote:So, when people say other races are underrepresented, of course they are. It's in proportion. Does that mean whites don't need to make an effort? Naturally we do, but not at the expense of our story. We need to try to tell more stories that happen to have other races. It's our duty and privilege. But we can't shoehorn our imaginations to politics. To make a character another race when they're not would be wrong.

This sounds like an excuse. What about the stories of AIO would be sacrificed if there was an Asian character who wasn't a stereotype? What would really substantially change if, say, the Hortons were Pakistani, or the Joneses were Korean, or the Barclays were Chinese? Of course AIO should not include non-white characters and then basically shove their non-whiteness down our throats, but how does that automatically preclude including non-stereotyped characters of other races altogether? It reminds me of what (I think) Mr. Whit's End said in the "Wish There Was A Character Like..." thread: if the Washingtons had been shown eating excessive amounts of fried chicken and watermelon and chugging Kool-Aid by the gallon, there would have been a huge outcry, and rightly so. But aside from some references to their race in their first episodes, no such characterization occurred.

Pound Foolish wrote:Meanwhile, are stereotypes of other races such a slap? Any more than the many stereotypes we make of ourselves (and the rather amusing stereotypes other countries make of white Americans. I'm not offended by them.)

Of course you're not offended by them. Your ethnic group has not been the victim of systematic and institutionalized oppression. (I mean, seriously, when was the last time you heard about a population of white people having those kinds of things happen to them—i.e. being placed in internment camps, being enslaved based on their race, having a legal and cultural code based entirely on forcibly preventing them from equality with the majority—in America? And that's just the tip of the iceberg.) Your ethnic group has not been the victim of whitewashing. You are not a member of a marginalized racial minority. You cannot fully understand on a personal level what it is like to be stereotyped based on your race any more than I can.

That aside, you have heard from someone who is Korean that he considers a stereotype of an Asian person to be offensive, so I'm not sure why you're continuing to question the basics of whether or not stereotyping is a problem to begin with when people are clearly telling you that it is.

Pound Foolish wrote:Coach Fang, for instance, speaks very poetically. How is that a bad thing? Is that even wholly inaccurate of the Japanese?

No. What comes to mind when you think of Japanese? Manga, technology and... Haiku! Haiku is one of the first things that come to mind. That's so amazing and special. How many cultures are like that? When you think of French or Germans, is an ancient form of poetry one of the first things that springs to mind? Nuh-uh. Japanese culture has clearly demonstrated a gift for colorful speech.

Just...wow. >_>

So every Asian person you've ever met speaks in flowery poetry, do they? This comes across as so very ignorant. See, when I think of Japanese culture, I think of a whole lot of different people who have different interests and communicate using typical prosaic speech. I know and have spoken to many Asian people and have heard Asian people speak, both natural born and immigrants, and I have never heard a single poetic conceit. The idea that one should pay homage to a particular culture by stereotyping the people in it is counterproductive nonsense. (Besides, we don't even know if Chang Fang is Japanese, do we? I get the impression that he's actually Chinese.)

Pound Foolish wrote:And, one last thing. In defense of us whiteys, we are getting better.

And it is true that media is getting a little bit better—I think it's great that BH6 had a biracial protagonist. But that isn't an excuse to continue the use of ethnic or cultural stereotypes, especially when people of that ethnicity or culture are calling them out as offensive. (I'm also not sure how much of a stride BH6 is, considering that while it does contain an ethnically diverse cast of well-rounded characters, Disney is still shoving Frozen, a movie starring two white princesses that may have also whitewashed a Saami man, in everyone's faces.)

Pound Foolish wrote: Stereotypes work in fiction. I've read in various sources, including Writers Digest if I recall, that stereotypes can be the right choice. It just depends what you want. Stereotypes fill specific needs just like more original characters. Do circumstances call for freshness or for a familiar tried-and true type?

Um... give me ONE example of a good, effective stereotype in fiction that wasn't used for comedic purposes.

*pokes around the forums*

Hmm.

Ergh.

Disclaimer: I'm 99% certain that I'm in near-total agreement with most of what Tiger has said here, if not all. Because we're just awesome like that.

*reads*

. .aaaannnnd I was right. I feel a strong sense of deja vu. It smells vaguely of incomprehensible, willful ignorance and repetitive headdesking.

If you live in Australia, you will be likely to write about Australians. All cultures create stories about their own race. By the same principle, if you're a pasty ol' white Caucasian, unless you force your story, you will likely get story ideas for mainly white characters.

What drivel is this? I mean, for all that's good and holy, story ideas for mainly white people? How is your typical story plot restricted to one's own race? How. Even? (Never mind the fact that there are, strictly speaking, only a very few original plot ideas, none of which are categorized "for whites only" or "for Asians only.) That's an utterly absurd proposition that's either poorly worded or. .just a baseless assumption. Mainly writing from a same-race character's POV /=/ to "getting story ideas for mainly same-race characters." At all.

So, when people say other races are underrepresented, of course they are. It's in proportion. Does that mean whites don't need to make an effort? Naturally we do, but not at the expense of our story. We need to try to tell more stories that happen to have other races. It's our duty and privilege. But we can't shoehorn our imaginations to politics. To make a character another race when they're not would be wrong.

No. It is not in proportion. Mainstream media deliberately whitewashes its main characters, despite the fairly straightforward fact that America is the proverbial melting pot--as is most of the world, to be honest. How do you "make a character another race when they're not"? I suppose you could say that the character that just sprung up in your imagination was "not a POC," assuming you're a white person. But every fleeting, whimsical thought is not final, nor should one strive for it to be. A story can, in most cases, acommodate a plethora of diverse characters--as the real world is. Most excuses otherwise are weak and unconvincing. "The expense of the story" is no excuse.

Meanwhile, are stereotypes of other races such a slap? Any more than the many stereotypes we make of ourselves (and the rather amusing stereotypes other countries make of white Americans. I'm not offended by them.)

I'm going to pretend that you're being cute here--because they are. They may no longer be as blatant and offensive as the blacks eating watermelon and fried chicken and talking like they just came out of the Deep South, but they're alive and well, rooted deep in society and placing unnecessary pressure on racial and ethnic minorities to conform to societal expectations (e.g, Asians are good at math, black people are good at sports). It also contributes to the gross phenomenon of when an ingroup fails to recognize diversity of the outgroup--manifested physically through the own-race/cross-race effect, and in casual conversation when an ingroup (in this case, a white American) generalizes and systematically marginalizes an outgroup. .just as you're doing. Not only is it offensive, but it reveals just how much ignorance and simple lack of knowledge exists out there, despite the fact that we in the 21st century are globally connected on an unpredented scale. And yet, we have this.

This, referring to your egregious and offensive *continuous* questioning of whether or not stereotyping characters. You're old (and, hopefully mature) enough to know, think, and act better. The world is full of rich, cultural diversity. Reducing down entire races to a few ridiculous characterizations to help you have a convenient, comforting mental file of us belies the lack of effort on the other's part. And I say this not with a "you vs. me" mentality here, the "black vs. white." I say this part looking at humanity: we all have to strive to continually learn from the other as we discover, understand, and assimilate information.

Coach Fang, for instance, speaks very poetically. How is that a bad thing? Is that even wholly inaccurate of the Japanese?

No. What comes to mind when you think of Japanese? Manga, technology and... Haiku! Haiku is one of the first things that come to mind. That's so amazing and special. How many cultures are like that? When you think of French or Germans, is an ancient form of poetry one of the first things that springs to mind? Nuh-uh. Japanese culture has clearly demonstrated a gift for colorful speech.

. .and here we go again. Wow. Just. .wow. How can you even make such a remark seriously? The fact that a country is well-renowned for an ancient, traditional form of poetry necessitates our projecting its history onto one character of uncertain provenance? I suppose, based on that, we should have American characters emulating Benjamin Jefferson or George Washington's speech patterns from now on to pay homage to their. .uh. .gift.

And please, don't dig around for a handful of examples amidst the sea of pervasive whitewashing to just to find one example of biraciality--because by and large, that's the minority. And it's no excuse to justify the continued stereotyping on blatant display for the entire world to see. Because it wasn't a hundred years ago, nor is it today. Nor will it ever be.

Mr. Whit's End wrote:

Pound Foolish wrote:So why do some users have something against characters like Coach Fang? Do such stereotypes insult anyone? Why should they?.

Pound Foolish on the ToO wrote:It's the most natural and good thing in the world to want one's race (or partial race) portrayed accurately.

Soooo......umm......I think there's your answer.

There is just so much win in this sentence and I just cannot even right at this moment in time help.

Also there's a lot of win in this entire topic, Starting with Tiger and ending with Marvin, who I had to double check my screen to make sure was him. on. SS. what. But anyways, these two have pretty much summed up the entire rant I was about to throw at the very Foolish one pretty nicely.

I will say this though, PF. You are a good friend, know that, but I cannot tell you how many points in your arguments were incredibly border-racism in stereotype. Asians are all poetic. Nooooo... That would be like saying British are all uptight, American hating, tea drinking royal pains in the warzone. Like all Germans love chocolate and cuckoo clocks. Like all of Spain knows how to dance and play guitar. It just doesn't work that way.

Character stereo types should not exist. period. A character being this way simply because he's from somewhere is just as bad as people typically dumbing down overweight people. I am not the thinnest cracker in the wheatcrisp package, but I like to pride myself on my intellect. My grades are fairly good, and I enjoy a good debate or two. Why am I automatically a loser because I have asthma? Why am I automatically a nerd or geek because I have glasses? Why am I automatically not as cool or smart as the thin, name brand girl beside me because my physical structure is different and/or heavier than hers, or because my clothing isn't from Forever21 or Hot Topic? Why am I automatically anti social because I'm quiet? Why am I automatically stupid when I don't know a pop culture referrence?

Oh, I'm not? I'm a unique person with unique gifts and talents and interests who is special in her own, personal way?

Kay. So why can't different racial characters be such?

Samantha14 wrote:
Character stereo types should not exist. period. A character being this way simply because he's from somewhere is just as bad as people typically dumbing down overweight people. I am not the thinnest cracker in the wheatcrisp package, but I like to pride myself on my intellect. My grades are fairly good, and I enjoy a good debate or two. Why am I automatically a loser because I have asthma? Why am I automatically a nerd or geek because I have glasses? Why am I automatically not as cool or smart as the thin, name brand girl beside me because my physical structure is different and/or heavier than hers, or because my clothing isn't from Forever21 or Hot Topic? Why am I automatically anti social because I'm quiet? Why am I automatically stupid when I don't know a pop culture referrence?

Oh, I'm not? I'm a unique person with unique gifts and talents and interests who is special in her own, personal way?

Kay. So why can't different racial characters be such?

Yes. I detest stereotypes. Even in fiction. It's an unnecessary shortcut; it's being lazy and what's more it's encouraging stereotyping in real life, where NO one is exactly the same. Everyone should be taken at their own merits, not looked at through the lens of a preconceived notion of how that person is "supposed" to be.
Part of the remedy to stereotypes is to actually get to know a person from a different race etc, and see how they are actually unique with their own thoughts and ideas and feelings. Stories should reflect this, especially on a Christian radio show, which is supposed to be showing how to love in the way Jesus loves us--he sees us as individuals--from the inside, not stereotypes--from the outside.

-- Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:16 am --

Also, how is Chang Fang Japanese? How is that a Japanese name? If you watch anime, you should know the difference between Japanese and Chinese words. They may have similar characters, but the languages are actually very different in sound and structure.

Hooo boy. This post is going to be enormous.

TigerShadow wrote:No, it does not. I wondered when Eugene would be brought up. The difference between ethnic stereotypes and Eugene is that Eugene is a well-rounded character in his own right. His humor comes from strong, solid characterization

TigerShadow wrote:I guess the question is, why would you not want a hand-crafted character who just happens to be of a certain ethnicity?

[...])

No, not a large chunk of it. Eugene's humor comes from using big words, talking down to people, or discovering that even with his genius there are limits. (That last one may require some explanation. That's when Eugene competed against Bernard in chess, or tried to attain a driver's license, or tried to outdo Bernard at doing windows.) In other words, from his stereotypical science nerd qualities.

TigerShadow wrote: Eugene has undergone character development such that he feels like a real person. Chang Fang has not.

Chang is a very minor side-character with very little room for characterization. Which is another reason why a stereotype works, especially as a side-character. we've seen this guy a million times and know who he is.
Also, Coach Fang is, after all, Coach Fang. So he does have character beyond the stereotype despite his small role, which only even exists because they occasionally need a sports coach. It is not stereotypical for an Asian to be a sports coach. That bit of character is his own.

TigerShadow wrote:We need to get something straight—are you referring solely to ethnic stereotypes? The title of this thread suggests that you're talking about stereotypes in general, but you only referred to racial stereotypes in your original post and that is what the majority of the post I'm quoting is about; if this is only to discuss race, then Eugene has no place here, because the nerd stereotype is based on personality.)

An excellent and much needed differentiation. We are talking both.
On the one hand, we have ethnic stereotypes which are considered offensive because some are. Portraying blacks as clueless southerners was an awful convention, as you've all brought up.
But some stereotypes are accepted. Not only because they are developed as you state. Though that is important for important, regularly recurring characters, whereas PJ, Shakespeare and company stayed about as they were. But because we do in fact love stereotypes. (For one thing, we've all met them in real life. I myself happen to personify the ditzy blonde.)

In other words, I brought up Eugene because you asserted,

TigerShadow wrote:I guess the question is, why would you not want a hand-crafted character who just happens to be of a certain ethnicity?

Well, that's why. Eugene is your answer. Stereotypes bring their own special brand of fun. Whether personality based or ethnic, it's the same principle.

This sounds like an excuse.

Calling something an excuse is a poor excuse for an argument. As for what would change, who knows? All that matters is the Barclays aren't Chinese. Making them Chinese would be absurd and an injustice to them just a it would be to make the Washington white. They are what they are. You can't change their race anymore than you can change a real person's. That's how characters are. Haven't you ever tried to make a character adhere to a plotpoitn and they wouldn't do it? Characters are boss. Once they tell you who they are, you have to do what they say. On the other hand, you might realized character had actually been another race all along. It's happened to me. I recently discovered a character in a novel of mine is black and she neglected to tell me for the longest time!

Of course you're not offended by them. Your ethnic group has not been the victim of systematic and institutionalized oppression.

It's sad that some will draw a connection between this and stereotypes, and be offended. It truly is saddening, because it's unnecessary. The sins of others done to others in the past has nothing to do with the stories of today. The wrongs of yesterday are to remembered, recorded, learned from, and moved on from. Not held onto. You see, that is what's really at the center of this for me. I believe with my heart that discrimination is dying in America and we whites are not the "in club" anymore. We need to include them because other races are just like us, not because they're different. Not because they've been hurt in the past and now we need to do special favors for this separate group of people, because they're not separate. We need to stop handling them with kid gloves, while still using common courtesy.

In other words, discrimination will only truly end when we stop discriminating.

So every Asian person you've ever met speaks in flowery poetry, do they?

No.

This comes across as so very ignorant.

It would if I said that, so it's fortunate I didn't.

See, when I think of Japanese culture, I think of a whole lot of different people who have different interests and communicate using typical prosaic speech.

Naturally they are. That doesn't stop them from having an overall cultural stamp. Every country does. France has a lot of good chefs. Which doesn't make every Frenchman a good cook. Or even anywhere near most of them. But it does mean there are a lot of good cooks in France.
Out of time. I haven't' even finished Tiger's post, let alone gotten to everyone else, but I'll be back.