If you think praying to the saints is weird...

[Pound Foolish]

Even assuming the saints are everyone, which I do not grant, it was clearly not referring to saints who are alive. The passage is about Heaven. The fact remains saints, be these saints everyone or not, pray for us. So why not ask for special intentions? If you think they cannot hear us, that is unbiblical as the article makes clear.

[Batgirl]

^ I agree with what Helios said

[Blitz]

For Mary and the saints to hear our prayers wouldn't that require them being omniscient? Even angels are not omnipresent. Another thing is that I believe all of us are saints which mean that in Revelation it also included our prayers. Another thing that verse proves that all Christians are saints(which is a fundamental belief of most Protestant groups). We are all equal in Christ(Note IN CHRIST WE ARE EQUAL). There is no Christian above another in the spiritual realm. Also I believe that saints are only in spirit present in heaven till the rapture. Before you cry foul about what John saw in Heaven, he was seeing the future.
Asking people on earth is different than asking the saint in heaven who are already dead and do not now me to pray for me. It is like saying I pray to my friends for them to pray for me. No pray is talking by the Holy Spirit who goes to Jesus to goes to God. Only this way can a man reach God.
No human unless they are God or perfect man cannot sin. Mary was completely normal as she a.so had many other kids by Joseph and if she had been sinless her kids would have been abnormal as she would have been. It would have been recognized obviously when she was younger. Mary simply carried Jesus.

[Eleventh Doctor]

What support do you have for the idea that the Saints are only spiritually present in heaven?

Can I ask you to expand on this idea that Mary simply carried Jesus? Do you mean that she only gave birth to His human body or?

[Blitz]

She only gave birth to his human body or she would have had to have been God.
Until the rapture only the spirit of a human is in heaven then it comes back to earth and takes a body and head up to heaven. Read all the rapture portions of the Bible.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Have you ever heard of Nestorianism?

What are the rapture portions of the Bible?

[Blitz]

1 Cor.15 mainly after verse 52.
1 Thess 4:15-18
2 Thess. 2
Mainly those.

[Eleventh Doctor]

I see nowhere in those verses that say our souls are separated from our bodies at death. I mean are our bodies just vessels for our souls?

Also you never answered my question about Nestorianism. It is the denial that Mary gave birth to Christ fully human and fully man. If you say that Mary only gave birth to Christ's human body then you deny Christ's divinity.

[Blitz]

No what I meant is that Mary did not actually conceive Jesus. The Holy Spirit did that. Matt. 1:20
To a degree yes. It would take way too long to explain it. My dad preached a sermon just on our souls and bodies in the rapture. I will give more detail tomorrow since I have to go now.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Okay I agree that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit but you do agree that Mary gave birth to Christ's divine nature and His human nature correct?

Well the idea of our bodies being vessels for our spirits is called Gnosticism, this thread is becoming a shout back to the oldies. I look forward to your clarification on this point.

[Arkán Dreamwalker]

Ho boy. I don't know whether to step in or not. Helping humans discover their wisdom is a laborious and exhausting service.

[Blitz]

Gnosticism is the belief all thing relating to the flesh are evil.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Yes that is what Gnosticism is and an outcome of the belief that all thing related to the flesh are evil is that our body is not important and merely acts as a vessel for our spirit, the body being unimportant. But let me ask you think, are there any physical aspects to our salvation or is it all about the mind or spirit?

Also can you clarify that you do agree that Mary gave birth to both Christ's divine and human nature?

[Blitz]

Yes, there are physical aspects of us being saved because I believe our bodies will be transformed to a perfect state again.
I believe that Mary gave birth to Christ's divine and human nature.

[arwen]

Praying to saints isn't just weird....it's wrong.

That's all I'm going to say. You can argue with me but I don't plan on answering.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Praying to the Saint isn't weird, it's the right thing to do.

There we go, I just contributed to the discussion as much as you did. Did you actually read the rest of the thread?

[NateVONgreat]

lol, nice 11th.
I disagree, but I am not going to go back and read everything again.
We are to pray the way Jesus taught us to. To the father God, "who art in heaven" so, in my mind, we are supposed to pray to God and not even Jesus, even though I have no doubt Jesus will hear us. But if Jesus prays to God (the father) and told us to pray to God, why should we pray to people who were humans and also prayed to God?
By praying we are submitting ourselves to the one we are praying to, and we cannot submit ourselves to saints who are just like us by being sinners who were forgiven, and saved by grace. we cannot pray to them. <---- that is a period at the end.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Where does the Bible say to not pray to Jesus?

Since you are doing everyone the great discourtesy of not reading what has been said in the thread so far I will rehash some of what has been said. Do you ask other people to pray for you?

[Blitz]

Hmm interesting idea. You can put it that way but as Hebrews states, Jesus is our mediator and He is God.

[NateVONgreat]

"in my mind, we are supposed to pray to God and not even Jesus" i said that, because it doesnt say not to, but it does say to pray to God. So I dont think it is a sin to pray to Jesus, but it is to the saints. Praying TO saints is a lot different than asking a friend to pray for me.