Is man basically good, or basically evil?

[Blitz]

God can use a unbeliever. Feel free to read Proverbs. Yes, I would take it.
Orthodox is in lose terms Catholic. Similar in belief.

[Pound Foolish]

Sing, if you have anything to add to this debate, add it. But Gratia's verses were erroneously used to support her case. If you think the refutations were wrong, point out how. And it's not a matter of Catholic Bible against Protestant Bible (though your Bibles are in fact historically problematic) but you Protestants misusing your own Bibles.

You too, Blitz? This is silly. You didn't actually say this, but it seems you believe everything non-christains do is a sin? If not, you are at least saying their deeds are "useless trash."

In Matthew 17, Jesus says, "only One is good." Perfectly true. There are good people by human standards, but not people who are truly perfect and uncorrupted, like Him. Besides, with the same breath, he adds, "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." If obeying the commandments is only any good if you are Christian, he neglected to mention it.

How do you get from Romans 10-12 that non-Christians do no good? In context, Paul was speaking to Christians and demonstrating that all Christians still sin, even though they try to follow Christ."Well then, are we better off?" He asks. (Also sometimes translated as, "Are we at a disadvantage?") Then he quotes scripture, reminding them that all sin. The vese doesn't entirely allign with the present circumstance, since obviously, not everything Christians do is "worthless." He concludes, "Now we know that the law is addressed to those under the law..." Emphasis added.

In conclusion, to say everything unchristian people do is a sin is to say that non-Christians who dedicate themselves to missionary work are doing useless trash, and non-Christian soldiers who give their lives for each other... you're even saying that unchristian mothers are sinning by bringing a child into the world. Does that seem quite reasonable? Can the incredible love so many mother's have in bearing children be written off as, "trash"? Does the idea of giving birth seem so sinful to you? Would you be able to look a new mother in the eye and say, "your giving birth to this baby is trash"?

[Eleventh Doctor]

No, Orthodox are not at all Catholics. Why would you say that?

Sure God can use an unbeliever, you make a good point with Proverbs. To clarify though, is every action of an unbeliever a sin?

[GratiaDei]

Does Catholocism/Orthodoxy distinguish between common grace and saving grace? Because I think the idea has relevance to our discussion.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Orthodox theology, to the best of my understanding, does not make a distinction between the two. God gives us grace and through that grace we are saved, God wishes that all men be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. This grace is available to all.

[GratiaDei]

Ok, well I don't know a ton about it, but the term common grace is a kind of grace available to all, regardless of whether they are saved. It's effects would include things like a sense of morality or charity in a non-believer, or good things happening to us. Saving grace, on the other hand, is what we receive when we accept Jesus. It's effects would be the promise of heaven, forgiveness for sins, and the work of the Holy Spirit. So I guess my point is that God gives his common grace to all, resulting in good works and virtues from people who are at heart, evil. I probably messed up my explanation, would anybody else like to take a stab at defining common grace?

[Blitz]

Orthodox, to many people who don't study the church heavily, is counted by them as Catholics.
Sin is basically anything that displeases God. And it is impossible to please him with out Christ so yes, everything they do is sin at least if you look at it that way.
PF, we as Christians are not under the law. Chapter 3 from Romans is about unbelievers. The whole first section of Romans can only be interpreted for unbelievers.

[SirWhit]

Christians are under the law. 1 John 5:3 states that the love of God is keeping His commandments, and Jesus stated in His sermon on the mount that he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it.

[Eleventh Doctor]

Blitz I am Orthodox, we do not consider ourselves Catholic. Please stop saying we do

[Doll]

Orthodox, to many people who don't study the church heavily, is counted by them as Catholics.

So, you're saying that to unedumacated people, they're the same? Even though you know they're not..

As far as being under the law or not:

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

We are not under the law of Moses, but we are still under the law and command of God.

[Blitz]

If we were under the law, you couldn't even wear a cotton and polyester shirt.

[SirWhit]

I don't believe that we're still under the ceromonial laws (i.e. festivals, etc.), but we are still bound by the Ten Commandments.

[Blitz]

To a degree, we are. As humans, we are made to worship God. But, sin is not imputed to us for God has justified us. See the verse you quoted was taken out of context. Jesus was talking to a man before he had died to save him. At that time, believing on Jesus to come into your heart was not in effect as it was today.
The law was made to help people be holy and keep them having to make so many sacrifices. It was how to be holy while now we are holy in Christ.

[Pound Foolish]

In other words, we are under The Law, but not in the same way, nor under all the same laws but still God's rules in an altered form. (Though parts of the law, like the Ten Commandments, like Wht's End mentioned, are still the exact same.) As Mr. Whit's End also pointed out, Jesus did not come destroy the law, "... but to fulfill it."

On a side note, as to the accept Jesus into your heart thing, you're right. It wasn't in practice in the Old Testament. Nor, for that matter, in the New. In fact, there's nowhere in Bible that even uses a phrase remotely similar to accepting, praying, or whatevering Jesus into your heart. Funny, huh?

[jehoshaphat]

Going back to the basically good or basically evil portion of this debate, how about this verse:"Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." Matthew 26:41. This shows that our spirit is good and wants the good but our flesh, causes us to do all the bad things we do. Our spirit, which is are basic part, is good.

[Blitz]

Romans 10:9
Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved....

[Eleventh Doctor]

Blitz, can you expand on your point? Because I don't understand

[Blitz]

I was talking to PF.
Accepting Jesus into your heart PF comes from Revelation 3:20 and asundry other verse. Most of those other phrases come from some verse relating to salvation.

[Pound Foolish]

Romans 10:9
Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead and thou shalt be saved....

Indeed, that verse is nothing like "accept Jesus into your heart." Thank you for adding evidence to my point.

Good Dr., Blitz never once said you believe the same as Catholics, please stop being so touchy old bean. All he said was some people, not him, tend to lump Catholics and Orthodox together. Perfectly true in my experience. Drop it. I'm not mad about being lumped up with you fellows, am I?

Now to the point.

Blitz, you have not satisfactorily answered the refutations to your interpretation of Romans 10-12. Given, as it happens, by me and Protestants both. (Me is grammatically correct here, it just looks wrong. "Myself" would in fact be wrong.) If you have an answer, please give it. Otherwise, that verse is done. And you didn't even try to argue against the refutations of your interpretation of Matthew, so I assume you're giving that one up as well.

The same story as all the verses thus far. Counting over all that come to mind, at least eight verses have been proven to be unsupportive of your thesis. From this data, a very probable and obvious conclusion emerges.

You are all doing the same thing over and over. Misinterpreting those verses. All the verses you have hurled and any you Protestants have in mind but have not used are all in fact useless to your thesis.

In short, there are no verses in the Bible to support your claims. Because they are false.

[Blitz]

You forgot to mention Revelation 3:20 PF.
Ah, but have you supported your theory with any verses.
Chapter three of Romans is about the Jews vrss Gentiles. He makes it obviously clearly in verse 9 that he is referring to both Gentiles and Jews. And specifically unbelieving.
Vrs 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin.
Read the whole chapter and you will see that Paul is not talking about Christians but rather unbelievers.

Now the issue of the law. We as Christians aren't even judged by the law. We don't even go to the White Throne judgement. We actually only give account of ourselves.